Monday, February 5, 2018

When We Gaslight Ourselves

I was hiking through the snowy woods on Saturday when my friend told me that her husband had called her a "fucking idiot" the day before. Stunned, I listened as she told the story, which was basically about him asking her to do something, criticizing how she was doing it and then, when she asked why he asked for her help if he was only going to criticize her, he exploded.
I asked how she responded. "I don't any more. I'm used to it."
Did you catch that? This lovely kind capable woman was called a "fucking idiot" by her husband she's "used to it."
I asked her when that sort of behaviour was ever acceptable. Talking to a child? No, of course not. Talking to an employee? Nope. Talking to a neighbour? A friend? It's absolutely not okay (not even on Twitter!!) to call anyone a "fucking idiot" to their face. It's cruel. It's demeaning. It's dehumanizing.
But...she's used to it.
As anyone on this site (and off it) knows, I'm absolutely a cheerleader for women who want to rebuild their marriages after infidelity. I don't subscribe to "once a cheater, always a cheater". I don't believe that the only response to infidelity is to "lose a cheater, gain a life". In fact, I think our  culture's knee-jerk response to infidelity keeps a lot of women unnecessarily silent and feeling trapped. I think we would all benefit from a far more open discussion of infidelity, its ubiquity and the myriad responses to it – all worthy of respect.
However, I never advocate anyone staying in a relationship when there's any kind of abuse. (And yes, I know, some people insist that infidelity is abuse. I'm not one of them.) And though my friend's marriage isn't marked by infidelity, it is rife with verbal abuse.
And yet, she's "used to it."
Part of the problem with abuse, of course, is that is often happens slowly. By the time someone is screaming "fucking idiot" at us, we're silently agreeing. We've likely listened for months if not years as our faults were routinely catalogued: we screw up, we forget things, we get in the way. No matter that every single person on the planet is guilty of the same – we're human, after all – we're treated as annoyances. We're people to be endured, not enjoyed. To be barely tolerated, not valued.
And we begin to gaslight ourselves.
Gaslighting, of course, is when we begin to doubt our own perception. We see it play out almost daily with "Fake News" (things that are true being called untrue) has become the rallying cry of a the extreme members of an entire American political party. When we're told up is down and black is white, we begin to wonder if we're crazy. Many of us experience a level of gaslighting while our partners cheat. If we ask our partners, we're often told that we're imagining things, that we're acting jealous, that we're being insulting by even implying that they might cheat. (And, okay, here's where I would agree that infidelity can be abusive. Gaslighting is abuse.) We begin to wonder if WE are the crazy ones because what we think we see and what we're told we see are two very different things.
But when we begin to gaslight ourselves, to insist that what's happening isn't – can't be! –  happening, we're onto a level of self-harm.
And that scares me more.
Because it means we've normalized the lies. We've internalized them. We agree with them.
Which breaks my heart.
My friend is the farthest thing from a "fucking idiot." But she resists the idea that someone screaming that in her face is abuse. Her father had a "temper", which you can bet looked and sounded something like this. Her son's father threw her around. Her husband criticizes her so frequently that she's "used to it."
So I'm asking you: What behaviour are you tolerating that, if you were hiking through the snowy woods with a trusted friend, you'd be afraid to disclose? Maybe it's casual insults. It might be the occasional push. Do you get told you "can't take a joke", that you "don't have a sense of humour" when your husband "teases"? Does he threaten to leave or "give up" when you try to set boundaries? Does he accuse you of what you think he's doing? Does he use divorce as a trump card any time you demand accountability from him?
We can push back against gaslighting. We can take our perceptions and ask trusted friends, "what do you make of this?" We can talk to a therapist who can tell us, clearly, if what we're experiencing is abuse. We can try to imagine the advice we'd give a friend if she confided the same behaviour from her husband.
And we can begin to find the small still voice deep inside that has almost gone silent. We can begin to listen to it. The one that tells us we don't deserve any of this. The one that holds our own divine spark. That knows we're worthy of being loved. That one that would never ever call us a "fucking idiot". Because it's not true.

68 comments:

  1. Oh Elle, I really feel for you friend, it almost seems worse when a man calls a woman derogatory names, what I mean by that is I have called my dumbass h see there I go again many names much worse than ‘ fucking idiot’ most probably because I’ve lost my temper or I feel at a loss or he’s said something hurtful to me. I think on the name calling I probably win hands down ( please don’t think I’m proud of this) I’d love to be with someone that treats me with respect as I’d do the same back. Sounds like your friend is being abused emotionally and mentally and is either fearful of the backlash should she challenge him or just doesn’t care what her h thinks of her as she thinks she can’t do anything about it. It’s really tough to hear a friend or family member being gaslighted when they can’t actually see it for what it is. I too have a colleague who’s husband threatens her with divorce if she calls him out and it drives me crazy to have to listen to it and not tell her to ring his neck. I can’t see her ever leaving him because she was controlled from her mother and now her h it’s history repeating itself. I just hope for my friend and yours that one day they will stand up and say enough is enough I’m not taking anymore. These guys are bullies, control freaks and they need to be challenged. Elle I think with you as her friend she will work it out hopefully sooner rather than later .. xxx

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  2. For me that was the same with the infidelity and how he treated me. I think it all came on so gradual. It was tiny little cracks that I never saw. And also since both of his affairs were sporadic there would be highs and lows. With distance from encounters he would be more his old self. I would question him on it and of course get a long list of excuses related to work, parents and other obligations that technically made sense. And my husband was the master of telling me you are an amazing mother but in the next breath why are you always saying you are so tired, I never asked you to make that big dinner, I never asked you to go to the store, I never asked you to do the laundry. Granted he was not offering to help feed or clothe the kids. But again it all makes sense now he felt bad and was ashamed and if he tried to help me then he would have been a bigger jerk. He explained it to me somewhat simply if he loved me and cared for me the way he should then he could not be doing what he did having affairs all those years so he had to turn me into something I was not to justify doing what he did. He says he beats himself up every day since there was no reason for him to have affairs (not that there ever is). But he was not lonely, ignored, etc, I was always here for him. I also have talked about my big ah ha moment was when he was gone on an extended trip for the first and only time. For whatever it was 6-7 years he basically told me I was the problem but when he was gone we were so happy. I realized it was him that was the issue not me. It was just so eye opening. I did not even care to talk to him and I remember him being offended when he called while away and I told him we were good but busy and did not have time to talk to him. What is interesting is he ended both affairs shortly after that trip.

    I know for me the key was figuring out that his issues are his issues. Sure they affect me since we are in a relationship but in the end I cannot change him. At that point I had no idea about the affairs but even then I focused on me. And I was much happier. Our marriage was still confusing but I was doing what I could.

    Now I say what I am thinking and feel. I do not sweep anything under the rug. I do not care if it is harsh. I have very high expectations. I feel that if I am to stay in this marriage I need to say how I feel and what I think. I am very matter of fact. Our biggest issue revolves around his friends and drinking still. Things have changed dramatically. What I see though is what he thinks he should do vs what he wants to do. I can literally see the conflict in his head. I do think some of it is conditioning over the years. When he takes a step back and asks himself what he wants to do then he gets an honest answer out of himself. But he gets caught up in group think. To me this remains my biggest concern. I do not think he is or would do anything with women at this point at all. But I see that battle in his head of poor decision making. Things have changed so much but I see these conflicts. His judgement has improved but I am vocal in my expectations and the consequences. And at this point that is all I can control.

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    1. Hopeful 30, I love that you have high expectations. So right. That is what you deserve. Why should any of us settle for mediocrity?

      Your experience of relief when the problem guy was away also rang true for me. It's just so tricky when children are involved.

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    2. Selkie, You are so right. Honestly I am not sure I would have stayed all those years or even after dday without having kids. My husband claims 1000% it is only about us in the end. I will never know. It is hard to say without being in that circumstance. I think if we did not have kids would he have cheated? The first affair started within a month of my due date with number two. And he does not blame or even say that it was having kids but no doubt it changes lives.

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    3. Hopeful30,
      "His issues are his issues." If every single one of us could get to that place, as well as to feeling entirely comfortable with our expectations within the relationship, then all suffering would cease. Honestly!!

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  3. Elle, your posts are always so timely. Recently I was helping my H with a complex task around the house and we both got frustrated with the situation- him more so because he has a short fuse. We handle those things differently - I get frustrated with the situation & I was ready to walk away and com back to it later. But his fallback reaction to a debacle is to put the blame on somebody. Anybody but himself. And this time he took it out on me. I don't even remember the words he used except one: "Fucking....", directed at me. My response? I asked him if he wanted a divorce. He said "you want to divorce me over this?". My internal voice was saying: 'no asshole, I said that because you cheated on me and I shouldn't have to tolerate ANY BS from you after that'. But, I bit my tongue and told him if he wanted my help he can not speak to me like that and I wanted an apology. My reaction (threatening divorce) was probably the too strong extreme opposite of what your friend did by tolerating it I suppose. I was gaslight for years and never even recognized it existed until I found BWC.

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    1. BEG, I too have had similar reactions. I find my fuse is short and not that I throw a fit or swear at him. I am actually super cool headed and matter of fact. I have been very firm with my husband and told him when something he does is not okay. And most of the time he wants to hug, say nice things or something and I tell him I need some time. What he has realized is he wants to hug me to make himself feel better. But I have told him no he needs to think about things before he says them. And I get we are wired differently just as you said. Swear at the task or get mad at what you are doing but do not take things out on me. No way. I agree since dday and really as time marches on I am just not okay with that and if anything react to the extreme but for me that is healthy. He needs to know I am not sticking around no matter what.

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    2. BEG,
      I understand the impulse to point out that he's overreacting by asking if he wants a divorce but it's something my husband tended to say to each other long before I knew of the infidelity and it too often shifts the discussion from the specific problem to a larger one. Telling him you would help him when he could behave like a grownup and, by the way, you'd like an apology is a great way of handling it. Leave him with the consequences. Let him sit with it. It won't change overnight. My husband has a really short fuse -- one of those who scream expletives when he stubs a toe. And it has taken time for me to learn to walk away. But he always ends up feeling stupid and sheepish. And things have changed dramatically.

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  4. I thought about this post a lot after reading it. I think I read it 3 times. The last few nights my husband and I have talked about having a weak mind. And I googled it to understand it more. Some of it I didn't agree with like quitting something. They didn't really go into detail it was just weak to quit something to walk away was a sign of weakness. This made me think even more. So I asked my husband if I was weak for staying with him and standing up to those women, all of them and he said no that I was one of the strongest people he knows. And then I thought about the woman he was involved with for 10 days and how she was able to validate herself by having her friend come after me on social media calling me a fucking dumb, fucking stupid a fucking hag and it goes on and on. This friend was protecting her from me. And I believed some of what she was saying about me. And through text messages and emails the OW did the same thing to me. And when I finally got closer to the truth of what actually happened the more names I got called. Then I remembered that I was called crazy for the way I reacted when I found out and actually thought I was crazy at that time. Then a year later I find myself in job with the same type of women who can't take responsibility for their own actions either. And because I stood up for myself again, I got called crazy. Then it really dawned on me that these are people who have have the weak minds. They feel important and powerful by calling me names and putting me down because in reality they are insecure, no self esteem, empty and in both cases their positions were crumbling around them and they would be seen for what they really are not what their ego see's them as. They see themselves as very intelligent, superior over everyone and everything,and they like the attention and disregard any emotion that we show them, like laughing at us because we get upset. They get off on our humiliation. Maybe your friend not having a reaction is a good thing. People who do these kinds of things want the reaction we give them. It makes them feel powerful but not having a reaction takes that power away. My husband was weak minded through out his short lived affair, he allowed manipulation, deceit and lies into our marriage from this woman and her friends because he didn't feel good about himself and chose not to sleep for days on end and then mix up his meds. Drinking coffee from her that was way to sweet, because he doesn't drink sugar in his coffee, but because he didn't want to hurt her feelings he never said anything. Even after someone had just brought him a coffee and she took it away. He chose the feeling of being pumped up from her admiration keep him from what the truth really was and he let them cross boundaries that no one else has ever done. In his weak mind at that time, he liked what was being said to him because he was feeling something even though he knew it was wrong. The medications he was on and mixed up or doubled because he missed a dose made him feel nothing at all. Everyone talked about them having an affair even though at that time it wasn't going so in his mind he thought he might as well go with it. And this is something he has to live with the rest of his life. I hope his judgement is better in the future. He's not on medication anymore but who's to say that it won't happen again. My husband is really a good man who just fucked up big time. Both of us are learning how to walk away now from people who aren't in my best interest is not a sign of weakness but a sign of strength. I hope your friend finds help with how to deal with this issue.
    Cathy

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    1. Cathy,
      An American politician posted something the other day that is so true: Confidence is quiet. Insecurity is loud. Those who are screaming the loudest at what's wrong with YOU are exactly those who fear, deep down, that there's something wrong with them. You've absolutely nailed it.

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  5. Elle you must one with the betrayal universe and beyond. I woke up at 3am thinking, how far have I have slid back? I thought of the all the things, that I have let go again. My H is a military officer. He thinks like a military officer. He has learned what works for the military doesn't work in a marriage. You know the marriage he ran off in a ditch. He has a strong personality. He is not rude. He is not demeaning. But I get so tired of standing up for me. It is like a kid who won't give in and just plain old wears me down. I don't even think he is aware. He has an opinion about everything I'm going to do. When I take a walk - he says why don't you do this or that. I say this is MY WALK. He just spews out options like the UN to me. Hey, let me think on my own and decide and tell you. One of his big complaints was I never took his advice. The OW took all his advice, the Adonis he was. She look up at him through his penis and pubic hair to take all his advice. He felt like like a king. Well, I'm not like that, I have to think things through. I do take his advice more regarding work because I agree with him. I can't explain it well, I just feel it all around. I say, I'm going to get a pedi - want to come along? He says sure. But then it isn't day he want to go. OR he doesn't feel like it. So I end up waiting and waiting. I say I want to take the grandkids to the movie, I miss them. He says let's do it next weekend, I want to be with you this weekend. Ok what do I say to that? I decided to be with him. Grandkids next weekend. It is like he edits everything I want to do. This happens all the time. In old marriage I know exactly what I would do. I did whatever the hell I wanted to without a consideration to him at all. Now I'm trying to figure out where is the middle ground? He is very sensitive about people not taking his advice. Like a rejection type thing. But it all leads to gas lighting myself. Doubting my self. I have no experience with this stuff. So I gaslight myself with - first reaction. It must be me. I'm doing it wrong. It is my fault. He doesn't have to gas light me, I put my own head in gas oven and light the pilot light. I normalize my lies to myself, like Elle says. Thank you Elle. Are you sure my therapist didn't call you and say - tell LLP she is driving on the side of the road, she needs a check up.

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    1. Could you maybe write down or journal your feelings/thoughts when this happens. Or almost track it. I think sometimes that can help me just get a handle on how I am feeling. Other times I have used what I have written to show my husband how I feel. And not in a ha see what you have done but more this is how I feel and I have been working on this. Can we find a better way to communicate. I get it we all have our ways and personalities. And with time they just get more set in their ways. I know for us a lot of what we have worked on were not horrible things but just habits that had formed from being together for so many years and had nothing to do with the affairs. I was thinking about this type of stuff for us this weekend. And at least for me it really has become more about what kind of marriage I want and working on communication. And it is so hard at times, but I keep pushing forward. I am trying to figure out how to face this next phase. Things are good with us but I want and expect more.

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    2. LLP - I've been struggling with this too lately. I feel like for the past 7 months I have been in fix-it mode ... my sole focus has been on saving our marriage. But in the past week I'm starting to realize that I'm NOT the only one who should be doing this.

      In your instance - H should be meeting your needs. It's not a rejection if you both agree on a day to go get pedis or to go see the grandkids - but it is a rejection of you when he dictates when those things happen and you have little or no say in it.

      I wish I knew how to put down the lighter (so to speak) and stop gas lighting myself as well ... it sounds so easy but the putting it into action part is hard!

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    3. I've spent a lifetime struggling with this. I've always believed that my role is to make those around me happy. Yeah...we all know how that turned out.
      My therapist used to tell me that I have a responsibility "to" those around me to be honest and respectful and kind. I have a responsibility "for" myself, to tend to my needs and my wants, and to be accountable for my behaviour. By being responsible "for" others feelings, we become resentful. And that is essentially poison to a relationship. So the key is to check in with ourselves before we make a choice. If your husband wants to be with you and you want to be with the grandkids, then he has the choice to join you with them or ask you when you might be able to spend some time with him. It is NOT your job to accommodate him if it's not also what you want. So often, after infidelity, we're afraid that if we don't tend to every need or desire, we're somehow making it more like that they'll cheat. We've internalized their choice to cheat as being our failing. Bullshit to that.
      Again, it is our job to take responsibility for ourselves. And it is THEIR job to take responsibility for themselves. When there are competing needs, we can negotiate and compromise. Just watch out for creeping resentment in your choices. And it's up to them to watch out for creeping resentment in THEIR choices. Two grown ups negotiating their relationship.

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  6. My cheating H is the king of gaslighting. He had me so confused when I first suspected something that I honestly did not know what to think. Our fights too would end up with me being called a fucking idiot, psycho etc...Once Dday hit and I unleashed the hounds of hell, he continued with the gaslighting and name calling. Our arguments were horrid and not too long ago something just clicked. I had taken him to the Er to get his ankle xrayed. Being the pansy he is, he lashed out at me. The next day I told in a quiet voice that our relationship is toxic, I've done the hard work,and if he lashes out again and ridicules me for being on meds (their fault), allowing demons to control me (my triggers, their demons) or says or does anything I perceive as harmful to my health, he is gone.

    All kinds of triggers are coming up, the one year anniversary of my Dad's passing, Being told after 2 days from his death I should be over my Dad and the affair. My inability to cry and ending up in a walk in clinic with chest pains, by myself. When I got home was called a fucking psycho and to get off the drugs.

    No more.

    He told me recently he protects me. I told him no, he provides. I asked him if he comforted and protected me when my Dad died, he said no. I asked him if he did anything to protect me after DDay like he protected her, he said no. I saw shame.

    But no more. I know my worth and value now.

    On a side note to give everyone a chuckle. Her favorite team is the Patriots and being in the stores did trigger some negative emotions. He tried turning the channel to watch the pre-game shows. I reminded him that anything Patriots related is forbidden in my house (2nd marriage, my house, my cable bill). I then found a movie that made me happy. ..Minions. So while most guys were enjoying Super Bowl Sunday, he had to sit and watch Minions with me!

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    1. Beagle Mom- I think being up front about the gaslighting helped me push all the dysfunction on him. I explained to him what it was and brought up key arguments in where he did this. At one point I shouted, “don’t you see what you’re doing? You are playing a freaking mind game with me to cover your shit and it has nothing to do with me!” I equated it to thousands of lies, coverups and blaming that was not meant for me. I told him this was his method of treatment to break me down when we both fully understand HE was the broken soul reaching out to other broken souls. The affair was not my fault and the gaslighting was the poison you made me drink to mask your own shame. If this is how you want to continue to show love and appreciation then I’m turning in my ticket for the game I never wanted to attend. People fall in private long before they fall in public. Yes, their fall from grace and their struggle is taken out on us. I’m so not into name calling. I use the f-bomb and use it frequently, but NEVER say it to a person. From our very first argument as a couple, I’ve had to train him on that. He tried and I would call him out on it each and every time.

      I love it that the Minions ruled Sunday. Yay for that Win. Stay strong Beagle Mom and when he tries to belittle or name call, toss it back and walk out the door. Like Elle suggested, make a plan for bad behavior. Make him understand that each time he does this it’s not only unacceptable BUT you’re not sticking around to enable this power over you.

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    2. Beagle Mom,
      Yay for you! That's amazing. I'm so glad you're able to see it so clearly and to claim your right to be treated with respect and kindness. He's on notice!
      And, frankly, he be thanking you for saving him from witnessing that brutal Patriots loss. ;)

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  7. Hopeful 30, that is a great idea. You are right so I can see what is going on that I may not even realize. Thank you.

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    1. It never hurts to try it. I was resistant after dday. But what I found was just for my own sake looking back it helped me see how far I came. It is easy for me to dwell on the spot I am in. Also it helped me see patterns. And I did use some of what I tracked as ammunition. Nothing major but I felt like my husband was always on his cell phone. And he is willing to let me see it at any moment and I have all passwords etc. But I mean he was always distracted on it and I had enough. So I brought that up to him. Well he had a million reasons why. And yes sometimes he needs it near him since he is on call but that is not all day every day. And one of his reasons was I was on mine all the time. Well I decided I was going to track his usage daily. I created charts and I compared it to our teenager and the rest of us in the family. Well it was shocking. He was overusing a ton compared to our teen. I collected data for over a month. And of course he still claimed it was from group texts but I said maybe he needs to exit those if they cause him to have his phone in his had at all times. That is a pretty simple and easy to track but I think it helps so much. And if you are seeing a therapist it can help when going to your appointments. Show them or explain what you write and notice.

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    2. Hopeful 30 I love that you tracked his cell phone usage and compared it to your teenager. That's brilliant!

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  8. I have been gaslit for the past 19 years - and I am still being gaslit to this day.

    My WH is a pilot. Serial cheater. We are kind of separated and going toward divorce. Nothing official yet. Lately, when he comes here to see the kids - we fight. Of coarse we fight-he has a girlfriend but still wants to come here and see the kids with no restrictions.

    After a fight last week-he said he picked up reserve time and would go to Miami and work, give kids peace and make extra money.

    I found out easily that he didn’t do that at all, he went to Lima, Peru to see her and stay at a hotel.

    When I called him on it-all he brings up are the kids, how we have destroyed them with our fighting, how he needed to go so they could have peace.

    WHAT? He completely lied - I mean, I remember him looking me in the eyes and saying, “do you know what I am going to do the next three days? I am going to be on reserve for 4 hours a day and sit in my dumpy condo so we can make extra money and the kids can have peace.” He lies right to my face!

    And once I found out, he kept trying to spin it that he was doing it for the kids, giving them peace, that he had to leave. Where does it matter where he went, he was gone and the kids had a quiet home again.

    As much as I tried to tell him what I know to be true - that he lied right to my face, lied to his kids, and would have gone to see her no matter what. He was using our strife to justify his actions. But he will never admit that or see my point.

    He will continue to use the kids turmoil to justify his getaway-and he will not stop trying to convince me. It’s over and over and over - that all I think of is us and I don’t care about the kids being OK and us doesn’t matter now-the kids are all that matter.

    It’s so frustrating when I know exactly how he planned this trip and exactly what he does to justify it and not feel bad about it. He will never get that.

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    1. That's so infuriating Ann. The lengths they will go to to convince themselves that they are not doing anything wrong. It's frightening. If they can't face up to what they are doing and what they have done and the legacy that then there is no way we can keep on in a relationship with them.

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    2. Ann,
      Yes, it's infuriating. But I"m hoping you can see that you are hurting yourself by staying focussed on him. As long as you're looking outward at what he's doing and how he lies, etc., you're giving him so much power over your own mental state. I'm sure you're also coming to terms with who he really is, rather than the guy you kept hoping he was, or remembering that he was. I just don't want you to be so focussed on his toxicity. You will be so much better off (and, frankly, so will your kids) when he is not part of your daily life. He is a master gaslighter. But he's going to be someone else's problem soon.

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    3. How do I stop focusing on him? He wants her - not me. All I can think about is him going to see her, treating her so nice, getting dressed up and going out to dinner, their room at a 5 star Hotel....how she loves him and makes him happy. How she gets everything now, his attention, his texts, his adoration, his sweetness, I am supposed to be the one who travels the world with him and gets all this!!!!! Why do I have to suffer this much and they get to be happy together! I can’t get out of this rage. I hate her so much!!!! And this is different from all the others- he loves her. I know he does. I can feel It witch makes it a million times harder to deal with. I just hate everything. I hate him, I hate her, I hate being stuck here with these kids and he just gets to travel the world and do whatever the Fuck he wants. I give up.

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    4. Ann,
      He loved you, didn't he? And now look how he treats you. The truth is, he loves himself. He prioritizes himself over anyone else (including his kids, from the sounds of it). Her "prize" is a guy who treats his family like shit, who disrespects his children's mother. Let her have him. Sounds like they deserve each other (and not in a good way). I know it's hard. Honestly, I do. And I don't mean to sound harsh. And rage can be an important part of the process. But it's also a mask for the deep sadness that's underneath and it can sometimes get in the way of us just acknowledging how sad we feel. We need to feel that sadness, knowing that we won't feel that way forever.
      Do you have a therapist who can help y ou through this? If not, I really hope you'll find someone. You need a safe space to feel supported as you work through all this. It can also help you manage your rage so that the separation/divorce can be as amicable as possible, if for no other reason than it's the best thing for your children. They want to love both of you, even if their father is a total ass. And they need the freedom to love both of you. You can give that to them.
      In the meantime, what can you do to work through your rage. Do you run? Can you take up kick-boxing? Do you journal? Can you scream into a pillow?
      And pay attention to the story you're telling yourself about what their life will be like. It's just a story, Ann. You have no idea what their life will be like. She could be a total nightmare. Their sex life might fizzle out. He might suffer erectile dysfunction. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW. So stop telling yourself stories that you believe are true. Think of his WORST traits, the things that drove you crazy about him. And then remind yourself that those things are just as likely to drive her crazy. And that, unless he does a whole lot of soul-searching, he's just as likely to do to her someday what he's doing to you. Relationships that start as affairs have a very remote chance of actually lasting. They just don't. They began as a lie. And they'll likely end the same way.
      But...try not to think about that. Focus on you. What you need right now to move forward. Make plans with friends. Take up a hobby. Go for long walks in nature. Whatever you can to remind yourself that you are going to be okay. You're going to be better than okay.
      And get a therapist to help you understand that his cheating is about his own moral failure -- not a rejection of you. I suspect there are deep abandonment issues lurking in you.

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    5. I just started seeing my IC again last week. I can’t go this week because my H spent all his money in Lima. I will make my next appointment next week.

      I work out a lot. I do aerobics-HIIT IT, body combat, cardio bootcamp. I journal sometimes. Idk if that helps. I think it might. I am a substitute teacher and am trying to work as much as I can.

      I really only have 1 friend. I have other moms that I am acquainted with - but we don’t go out or anything. I don’t know why I have no friends at this point in my life. My IC told me I am the Statue Of Liberty with scaffolding up to her feet-I have NO SUPPORT. My family lives far away and I am not that close anymore. I haven’t been to see them in so long - since the kids were little. They hate me for that- but I know my big sisters would help - but i just get exhausted thinking of explaining all this to them.

      He already told me that he is staying away-he has vacation next week - i Don’t know what he is doing or where he is going. He said he won’t come here until the end of the month when I am supposed to go on a vacation by myself and he stays with the kids. Whatever. I wanted him to come here and see the kids. I told him I would work, work out and just be out and busy and he could have time with his kids. I know he probably already has plans anyway. Now I have to think about that the whole time he is gone.

      I don’t think I have abandonment issues-idk. I come from a big loving family - he’s been the only man In my life-i met him when I was young. I think that has a lot to do with it.

      I just see no way out of this misery. I have never felt this bad in my life as I do since he met her in mid December.

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    6. Ann - Elle is spot on here! Hugs to you right now because I know this absolutely sucks and there is nothing to do but go through it ...

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    7. There is a way out of this misery...but it takes time. If your relationship with him is all you've known, then it's hard to imagine a life without him. But HE is the one who's brought misery to your life. It is probably that, without him and with time and healing, you'll go on to have a wonderful life.
      But...it takes work. And it takes time. I'm really glad you have a therapist. Do you have no savings at all? No money of your own that you have access to? How has a pilot managed to spend every cent he makes? That, in itself, sounds really nuts.
      And maybe it's time to reconcile with your large, loving family. Your therapist is right. You need support. You can tell them you don't have the energy for details but that your marriage is crumbling and you're devastated. It would be good for your kids, too.
      Ann, you'll get through this. We've all been where you are -- devastated and exhausted and certain that we'll be miserable for the rest of our lives.

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    8. Elle,

      He has his own account. His credit union in his name only. He spent all his savings and all his checking. He has money on his credit card I guess. It is nuts. He lives in Miami-eats our all the time - goes out. spends a lot on his trips. We have a lot of bills-i pay them and he has no clue. He makes a lot but not enough for his lifestyle. We have another joint account-he transfers $ on payday. That is why I am trying to Sub as much as I can - to get my own $$. He already looked into when we divorce- I’ll get half his 401k and half his salary. He said I would be better off - have my own $.

      I will call my sister. I know I need to.

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    9. Ann I feel so much for you, remember being where you are and the agony of "why is he doing this?" and having given and tried so hard, feeling like he gave something that was mine away. But Elle has given you some spot on advice.
      You are allowed to tell him he needs to move out, if having him around hurts you. He's the one at fault.
      Absolutely reach out to family. You don't need to explain everything, just that you need them. If I had to guess, part of your isolation is a result of the jackass gaslighting husband's tactics. I had lost touch with so many friends, had no real close friendships when I found out about my husband's affair. And it was because we only ever did what he wanted and often that involved me staying home with the kids while he "hung out with the guys" so he could unwind (ie. drink his face off) from work stress. You can reconnect with old friends or get involved in something where you can make new ones. Volunteering is fantastic for this and fills your cup too.
      When he travels, I know it is so hard not to be triggered and play stories over and over in your mind again. First recognize that they are just stories. You have no way of knowing what is true or real. Find ways to interrupt the cycling thoughts and mind movies. Wear a rubber band on your wrist and snap it when your thoughts start racing in bad directions. Picture a big old stop sign and say STOP out loud.
      He doesn't want you to get a lawyer? tough shit. You can consult one for free to start andx they will give you some good insight into what kind of alimony and child support you are entitled too. And yoou are likely, because of your disparate earning ptoential to be entitled to more than half of the retirement savings and current marital assets. The theory being that his high earnings will allow him to make up what you can't. I got 60% of all retirement assets, so don't settle. Also, If he doesn't want the expense of two lawyers, you can both work with a divorce mediator instead. This person works for you BOTH. His lawyer only works for him and will absolutely be biased in his favor, not fighting for what you deserve. Your H is so lost and such a completely selfish bastard. And given how you describe his spending and lifestyle habits has been an irresponsible dick for a long time.
      I know that's a lot to digest, when you are hurting so, so much. But know that you will be OK. You really will. There will come a time when you look back and think, why did I put up with the abuse for so long. I certainly wrestle with that. It's so scary, but I believe you will come out of this standing on your own two feet and with the support of friends and family and a real sense of who you really are.

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    10. Elle,

      I am still a mess. I kept going back to our texts yesterday - he is so insistent about the kids the kids the kids-we can’t be together because we fight and it’s bad for the kids. No mention at all that he lied and went to see her in Lima-that is irrelevant. Like how dare I find out his secret and ruin his nice time. He writes to me that I don’t put the kids first, that I don’t understand that we are hurting them by being together! What I feel about him and his girlfriend doesn’t matter-my feelings don’t matter, that I am hurting doesn’t matter because he is hurting too being away from the kids. It’s the kids - they are all that matter. I deleted all his texts - it’s such BS that I am trying to process and understand but none of it makes sense! He makes me feel like I am the only one with the problem and I am the cause of all our fights!!!!! I know for a fact that he had this trip planned before Saturday-that is why he drank a lot and picked a fight-so he could justify it in his Fucked up head. I know this because All I wanted to do that night - believe it or not - was have sex. I was just using him while he was here to feel better-I didn’t want to fight!

      I wish a therapist could be with him 24/7 and explain things to him. How can he be so demented in his mind?

      Idk-it takes a lot to not believe him and be under his spell-to see his point of view. I am not a type A personality at all - I am very low key and easy going. Easily manipulated.

      If he texts me today - I am just going to say-“you are right-it’s best if you stay away”.

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    11. Ann, You're going to feel like you're a "mess" for a while. But you're not a mess. You're grieving the loss of a relationship and you're dealing with the devastation of betrayal.
      As for his insistence that you're not "putting the kids first" -- that is really rich given that he's the one with the girlfriend. Seriously, he is one incredibly mixed up person. How dare he? However...Ann, you are NOT going to get him to see your point of view. He's not capable of it. Instead, cut off any communication except for absolutely what you need to talk about -- ie. the very basics of info re. the kids. And ONLY if you absolutely need to. I suspect he feeds, to some degree, off drama and off his need to make you the "bad guy" to justify his behaviour. Don't give into it. Be as distant as possible. Be as calm as possible. Do NOT engage in any communication that's not absolutely necessary. I wouldn't even respond with "you are right...etc." I wouldn't respond at all. If he asks a question, then yes, a simple "you're right. We need to have no contact except as it relates to the kids." And then adhere to it.
      Do everything you can to keep yourself strong and to feel supported. I know you can't yet see it, but you are so much better off without this guy in your house and in your life.

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    12. Ann,
      I'm so sorry you're going through this. Not only do we have the same name (I always keep mine all lower case letters), but my H is a pilot too. I totally understand the stress that comes with healing from this and frequent travel to exotic places with flight attendants. This is a world very few people understand. My H dealt with ego issues from climbing to the top of his competitive field. I think a lot do. Their world does crash, however, and they are poor predictors of what will make them happy . I hope you can let him choose his path and you choose yours. It's not easy when it seems he's got it so easy, but he's headed for sexual harassment suits and the aging process shaking his whole self worth at this point. Let him go that way, but don't join him!
      ann (lower case, lol)

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    13. Still Standing 1, Elle

      Thank you for the support today. I really needed it. It is so hard with the stories - especially when we have no stories of our own really - we never traveled together or remember any great times at all. There are zero pictures of us together, but I am sure he has a ton with her. It is just so sad that now is the time when we would get to do all that! Now that the kids are older, now that he finally is making money. It breaks my heart in a million pieces. But I will try your advice to stop these thoughts. My IC mentioned before to just say STOP as you suggested. It will take a lot of discipline.

      He won't move out. He already lives in Miami at his condo when he has to work. If I say that - he will just come back with how I am jeopardizing his time with his kids. That it is not about us and that the He just wants a peaceful time with his kids and how dare I take that away from him. I have an appointment to see a lawyer in a couple of weeks. It is just a consultation but I need to find out what to do here. He has consulted a lawyer already. I think mediation would be best. He already knows I will get half - he is OK with that. I am convinced that all this escalated because of his girlfriend. I know she has something to do with this. I saw their texts last week and she asked if he saw his lawyer - I think he is so pussy whipped he doesn't know what is going on. But I will go - I need someone looking out for me - even though I know he wouldn't not give me money or take care of the kids.

      I want him to come here on his vacation this week to show him that I am moving on - it will be hard! I will do as you suggest Elle - no communication unless needed. I want to show him that I am OK, that I am calm and that I will be OK. I have to do this - if he stays away it will give him power - that he is staying away because of me and my outbursts. I have to make next week work. I will consult the lawyer and figure out the rest.

      I am very sad. I am. You are right that that is at the heart of it. So sad how it all ended up - with very few nice memories or future ahead.

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    14. Ann, you are right, stopping the mind movies and thinking does take discipline. You won't always be successful interrupting those thoughts. But don't be hard on yourself about it. Just keep trying. And remind yourself that you are doing the best you can in the shittiest of circumstances.
      If he tells you that YOU are jeopardizing his time with the kids, just remember that HE is responsible for his choices and actions and it is his choices and actions that are jeopardizing his time with the kids. Part two of this thought, you are in no way indicating that he will not get his time with the kids or threatening to take that away by asking him to move out. This is just a simple consequence for his choices. You will support his access to your children, but he doesn't get to have access to you any more.
      Detach, disengage, don't bite the hooks he'll set to manipulate you. Maybe practice conversations with your therapist. Or write down what you need to say. Stick to that. When he goes into blame and deflect mode simply restate and disengage.
      When he is back on his vacation, have plans, be busy, leave him to have his time with the kids. Let him have full responsibility for meals and anything else that needs to happen in that time. You being calm will be good for you and for the kids. They do need to be able to love both parents even if one is a complete jackass. And know that you, at least, can model self respect and dignity and that you can put their needs in the right perspective (rather than as a blackmail tool as your husband seems to be doing). I'm so angry on your behalf Ann.
      And Ann, I get how sad it is. I still get sad. All the sacrifice of my body (so many repair surgeries) and my career counting on our future together an dhow we were in the home stretch, about to be empty nesters and able to enjoy more time and travel together. I had nice memories to look back on and I can still see how sad and how unspeakably lonely and taken for granted I have been for years and years. As far as the future, Ann, remember at the end of high school or maybe college if that's where you ended up, where everything seemed possible? Where life was all options and possibilities? Maybe I could be an archaeologist? Maybe a writer? Maybe I could travel all over the world? Where you believed you could do anything because there were so many roads ahead? Ann that is true for you right now. Right this second. It's scary and feels like there's no ground under your feet, but you can still do or be anything. This is a chance for you to find yourself and choose the course of your life. Knowing that it will be hard, but that nothing is set in stone. No decision is permanent. You can go explore and try on different versions of you, become who you want to be. And I am really sure that one day, you and I and others like us will look back and be amazed at how far we've come.

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    15. SS1, I am giving you a total standing ovation. Ann, everything Still Standing 1 wrote is the absolute truth and incredibly good advice. Please take it. Treat yourself with respect. Don't let him convince you that any of this is your fault. Stand firm in your convictions. And take some time to dream about your future -- it's all possible. And you won't have this self-centred man in the way.

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    16. Ann - Everything you are feeling is normal. I would urge you to find the best and most experienced attorney for your needs and see them asap. We live in what I would classify as a small town and there are several that are known do do their job very well. You need to find out in your state all of your rights beyond the financial. And beyond getting half of the money like you said his 401k/pension also maintenance and then child support too. There are many layers. And even if he has nothing saved there are forensic accountants that evaluate these things. And as far as custody goes that is a huge aspect too. Lawyers can help a lot. My husband does a lot of child custody work and it can go on for years. He does urge people to settle it if they can but many people do end up having full psychological evaluations and home studies of both homes if it comes to that. There is a major assessment of the kids needs, who cares for them and who is most able to care for them among many other factors. I would ask your therapist if they have experience with this. If not see if you can find a therapist or psychologist that deals with child custody and get a consult with them too potentially. None of this feels good but for me when I am armed with information and knowledge it helps me settle and feel more confident even in the face of a negative situation.

      And I understand that feeling of no friends. I have no siblings, I cannot tell my parents what my husband did and I have a few friends but it is obvious by our past conversations what they would think in this case. I know they would be nice but I do not think they have the understanding to truly support me. I also am more skeptical of people so I find myself not trusting others and opening up that much. So in turn I am guarded. This is a hard path but you can do this for you and your girls. Keep posting as I know for me during the hardest times this website was so important!

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    17. I’m happy you two Ann’s are connected! I was waiting for this to happen. It’s always helpful to connect with someone aware of that crazed lifestyle of a pilot. I dated one and oddly enough he had fights to Peru!
      Ann, all the above advice is spot on. And... your H is in lust, not love. He’s living in a fantasy world unfortunately and hurting his loyal tribe at home. He’s the one hurting the kids by creating the situation, fights and now for going away. It will come to a halt as we all know.
      You are in extreme pain and yes this completely sucks! Keep you chin up and polish up on the kick boxing and get the anger out. Ask your therapist to be on a payment plan. Ask your sisters if they can help with things. You need to talk and get this out most importantly. His gaslighting and behavior deserve pure silence and direct, quick responses, as Elle said.

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    18. Ann
      I’m only going to say that I’m so sorry he’s such a jackass! He’s using your children, his children, to justify in his twisted mind his girlfriend! He doesn’t have to stay in your house with you and the children, if he’s capable of financing his girlfriend with whatever he chooses to do for her, can be curtailed to allow him to stay at a cheap motel when he chooses to interact with the children! They are already used to him being gone more than home. Yet, the children don’t need to witness the fighting that typically follows betrayal! I’m lucky! Our children are both adults and when he did his cheating, our daughter was going through a very difficult custody battle! He spent money for her but he wasn’t available emotionally for her nor me! That’s why I was so strong when I learned of his affair...and yet I found myself at my very weakest point in my life! I’m hoping that you can find the strength to continue doing what is right for you and as we know those precious children that you only have put first in this complex mess that their father chose to put them in! Sending hugs!

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    19. Still Standing 1 and Elle,

      I will look at it like that. What choice do I have, right? I am 47. At the end of college I was already engaged to my H. I was never on my own, only me. I would have to go back to the end of High School! It is scary. But I will use this to keep going. I have no idea what I am going to do! But I will have something to focus my energy on now I guess.

      And the issue with my H moving out.....he keeps saying that he still wants to be here when our little one wakes up and when she goes to bed. To play on the back yard and watch movies. He doesn’t want to have to leave and go to a hotel or apartment or just pick her up and take her out to eat. -because he is gone all the time anyway! This is a tough issue that he will fight me on. He said that I could go to a hotel sometimes. Idk- I guess this is what a mediator will help with.

      Thanks for the advice for his vacation too. I know that he won’t start anything, he certainly doesn’t want to bring up any of his crap-or start a fight-but we certainly can’t drink wine and hang out. I will stay away for sure.

      Thanks again for all your help today. I was really loosing it as you could tell. I stayed in bed all morning just crying. I hate doing this.

      Please keep reading! I will need so much more help!



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    20. Ann, Thinking of you all day every day. Keep writing and sharing if that helps you. Do what you need to take care of you.

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    21. Thank you all so much. It is so nice that I can see things a little more clear when I get your opinions. I can't believe I have been in this mess for so long!!!

      For example - last year - I was sick in Nov. 2016 with Anemia and had to go in the hospital. My H said that he felt the warmth come back and he wanted to take care of me. Things were good for a little bit - but once I was out of the fog of anemia - I knew he was just doing the same things. And we had a fight that Christmas as well. Anyway - he came home after a trip and I was getting his clothes out of his bag to wash - and found a package of condoms. I left it out so he would know that I saw. The next morning he was on his phone and looked panicked. I didn't say anything. He looked at me and said - "You know - I bought those for us" (there was 1 missing from the package of 3) I knew this was total BS! But he continued to say that because of my anemia he didn't want to hurt me and what if I got pregnant and went on and on how he was concerned about my health! I almost believed him!!!! After a few days he said something like he was with someone but he was too drunk! I explain this because this has been my life for the past 15 years at least - and I was just so wrapped up in all his lies and gas lighting that I couldn't even see it!

      Also - I feel that this is my fault some how now. I mean - I told him last march that I wanted to get a divorce. I told him I couldn't take it any more with him and other women. He didn't want a divorce - said it would ruin the kids etc...We talked about taking a vacation together and going from there. Of coarse we never did. We never got help and no one ever ended it. Just kept going along. Can I really blame him for finding someone else? I certainly didn't treat him nice or like he was my husband.I have been cold and distant. Ever since I knew from the beginning, when our oldest was little and I knew he was with some flight attendants in NY - I just put up walls and dealt with it. I should have demanded we and he get help. I guess I just didn't know to make it right. I should have left or filed for a separation agreement a long time ago to wake him up. Or just tell him that I loved him and I wanted him to stop. I never did anything. Maybe we could have fixed it.

      But - there is no going back. It is just sad.

      I know that he has a lot of demons - and that is why he does a lot of these destructive things - but I can't be with him any more - he needs to get help - I am not sure if he will.

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    22. And one last thing that has been really bothering me. When I found out about this woman in December, My husband did tell me that he would drop everyone and everything, that we should go to counseling. I think he said it after I saw all the Instagram posts from her of how she loved him and he was texting me as he landed in Lima. I just told him No, No, No, it would never work. That he would never change. I need to get away from him and get back to who I was. He did mention it a couple of times. What if I said OK. What if I said Yes - I want to make it work! From there he just Kept seeing her and now it is just too late. I don't know if he was sincere or if he just wanted to put up a front so he wouldn't have to get divorced and he would have kept seeing her anyway.

      I don't know - it takes two people to ruin a relationship - I just feel guilty that I didn't do all to save it - ever.

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    23. Ann
      You describe a bad connection and you think that you caused him to cheat but I know that my h made his choice and it had nothing to do with me! Our marriage was in trouble given that we stayed in different houses that year he chose to cheat! I tried desperately to hurry the process of our daughters custody battle but it took many months and then when I did move back into our house where he works , he continued his affair for another year just to keep me from finding out! He was a very unhappy man during his three years of trying to get rid of her and by then I knew about it and she still wouldn’t leave him alone! I don’t believe that any choices your h made are your fault either! I’m sending hugs and prayers for you to just take the next right step for you!

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    24. Shoulda, coulda, woulda ...

      What if HE just ended the affairs?

      What if HE found an IC to deal with his bag of crap?

      What if HE attempted to reconnect with you?

      What if HE attempted to save the marriage?

      HOW many of US have had to try to save the marriage on our own without our WH's participation?

      Do NOT let his bullshit in ... you had every right to react the way you did ... and HE chose to react the way he did.

      Argh! We get so wrapped up in blaming ourselves (believe me ... I'm just as bad at this myself) that we lose sight of what they did and we start to justify their behavior. There is NO excuses worthy of stepping out of a marriage. And until he realizes that ... he's going to continue to put the blame on you.

      I started listening to podcasts from Affair Recovery last week. I started listening to this one and was waiting to be all smug about needing to know my H's why ... but what this guy says is so very true. The "WHY" in the beginning was all about me. It was ALL about blaming me for x, y and z. But as H has evolved in his own journey he's starting to take ownership in his WHY. I saw it happen in my own situation -- and I can only hold on to the hope that one day he'll truly understand what was going on with him that allowed him to do what he did.

      https://www.affairrecovery.com/survivors/samuel/you-must-know-why-you-or-your-spouse-cheated

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    25. Kimberly-

      Thanks. I just struggle because he always tells me he has tried to reach out-but it was after I knew he cheated on me a million times. I just had so many walls built up around me already that any amount of reaching out didn’t do anything.

      I am sure he never thought he needed IC or needs it. He might have a clue now. If I had done something drastic like file a separation agreement or divorce papers / he would have changed.

      But- all those years that I didn’t know- I asked him last week if he felt bad about cheating on me all those times-he said -NO. He felt alone, like he was struggling for the family and no one cared, that he always had to leave and fly with no money and stay in shitty crash pads in shitty neighborhoods. That the kids didn’t care if he left or when he came home. That I didn’t help him out financially like all the other pilots wives. He was sick of all these women wanting him he just did it for himself-he deserves it somehow.

      So - I guess there is nothing I could have done.

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    26. But then, there were times when things were OK. We would be together hanging out-probably some wine involved - but he would be really sincere and he would say he was so sorry for what he had done to me. I could feel that he really meant it. He just needs help. I can’t do this any more.

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    27. Ann - the hardest part of all of this for me at least has been *knowing* I could have been a different wife. I *own* my shit.

      And in the beginning it was so hard to know that he wasn't truly himself - at first I latched onto affair fog because I needed that hope - but I quickly realized it was far more than affair fog. He wasn't in a good place in his own life leading up to his affair. I saw it ... some of his friends saw it ... but he didn't.

      It wasn't until the past 2 weeks that he finally started to see it and we are almost 8 months post D-Day ... and 6 months post contact with the OW.

      I truly do NOT see how your WH is going to see the light if he continues to see his APs. I just don't see how he'll ever acknowledge that he's broken until he's at rock bottom.

      I know you are taking a vacation soon ... I hope that it gives you time to refuel your tank and to give yourself the selfcare and compassion that you are going to need in the coming months. You certainly have earned your R&R!

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    28. Theresa,

      I was just wondering if you were separated when you were living in different houses when he cheated? Or if that was because of his work? And why did you so quickly get custody of the kids? I appreciated your response. You are right. If there is trouble in the marriage and a bad connection-still not reason to cheat. Separate and divorce If he was so unhappy and didn’t want to work on things. I definitely should have a long time ago. Just all the gaslighting and I was beaten down -plus I had anemia, I didn’t know what I was doing. He knew what he was doing.

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    29. Ann
      We were separated because he was working 2 and a half hours from home. We bought a house that needed many repairs but he lived in it while making those repairs. I was going back and forth between the two houses. His affair happened when our daughter was going through her messy battle with her baby daddy and she has shared custody of our grandsons. My h had a secret double life and fell in too deep with a nut case while going through a mid life crisis and was just looking for sex. Problem was his cow divorced her h and used my h as an exit affair but she fell in love with the idea of having the life that I had. I have been retired for more than 8 years... she wanted that life!

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    30. Wounded Warriors!

      Well I picked my H from the airport on Saturday morning. I just wanted to update you all. I haven’t talked with him-only if I had to. I have given him the space to just be with his kids. I go to bed without saying anything.

      I have been trying to stay busy. The kids had stuff going on. I have gone to the gym Sun. And Mon. food shopping. He’s mostly playing video games with our oldest and sleeps in. He hasn’t had wine nor have I.

      I haven’t been mean-just disengaged.

      I noticed a couple of things he’s said to get me riled up or to make me say something back.

      He had problems with his nose that he never got fixed-it’s been broken a few times and he can’t sleep very well. He said that he needs to get it fixed. He said that he would wait until our daughter with the drivers license could take him. Like I don’t care because I’m a cold hearted bitch. Like it’s all On me that I can’t stand him and might not help him. Like i am The one with the problem and he can’t rely on me. I told him that I would take him if he got it done. He did help me with some of my Dr.’s appts when I had anemia. I’m not a Monster! I know he wanted me to say something like - “why don’t you ask your GF to take you.”

      And then Today-he was going to take our little one to gymnastics class- he has smoothies in the morning and is hungry early/he said he couldn’t wait until late to eat-he asked what time we were eating. I said that we usually eat when We get back but I was making our daughter a chicken wrap to eat before-and before I could finish he said - “Forget it - I’ll eat out!” This is after I made enough for him. He wanted me to freak and say - “fine! Eat out you fucking asshole”. I don’t want to cook for you anyway! I told him I had enough and was making for our little one anyway.

      And I start the fights? These two examples are instigating for sure!

      BTW-his stomach has been upset since he came home a couple weeks ago-He says it’s the smoothies but- I think it’s all the stress in his mind - lying to me- lying to her I’m sure. The looming separation and divorce. The kids, his salary.....

      This will have to do until I see the lawyer and figure things out. It’s hard-I am just trying to keep busy and focus on the kids. It makes a difference -I am trying not to focus on him at all. But it’s hard work.



      Delete
    31. Ann, You are AMAZING. Keep doing what you're doing. I know it's hard work. But you're excelling at it. He will keep trying to suck you into a fight because it allows him to justify what he's done/doing. And he will likely ramp up, doing what he can to get you to freak out or yell or whatever so he can feel like the good guy and you're the crazy wife.
      Don't give in. Walk away, if necessary. Just keep making plans to help keep yourself balanced as much as you can.
      I hate that you have to do this...but hang in there.

      Delete
    32. Thanks Elle!

      It is scary how I see it now. How I see that he does use me to be the bad guy so that he can justify all he does. Like that night we had that awful fight. He drank so much - and started talking about things that we fight about anyway. He wanted me to freak out! He wanted to fight so he could leave with a clear conscience! I am so mad - because if you met me - I am the most mellow, low key, non-confrontational person ever.

      I think I learned all this from his fucked up behavior.

      I remember so many times where we would be hanging out - drinking - we would plan on going upstairs for "fun". I would take a shower and he would pass out - I would just go to bed, because, who wants to have sex with a really drunk guy - NO ONE! When he would wake up - he would be so angry! He would bang things all over the house and call me a cunt and that he doesn't need me and he can find someone else to fuck - romantic right?

      And a few years ago we went out one night. He texted the kids at home to make sure all was OK. they didn't text back he got so mad - he came home and smashed all their phones!

      Stuff like this I guess he doesn't remember, it's only my outbursts provoked by him that stick in his head.

      You are right. He is no prize and this latest woman deserves him. I really hope he tries with her and it doesn't work out - and he finally figures out it's him - he is the problem. But - they will probably live happily ever after.

      IDK - at least he is not drinking while he is here - I guess that is a step in the right direction form him with the kids. I know they see it is a problem and they hate it.

      I will keep trying - this is what I have to do until we come to an agreement. It sucks but it is better than snooping and fighting for sure.

      Thanks again for all your help, Elle. Especially last Wednesday - I was really loosing it! and sill am!

      Delete
    33. Ann,
      Your stories are stories of abuse. The name-calling, the phone-smashing. That's abuse. That's ruling a family by fear. And that's not going to change. YOU are not causing this behaviour. Your kids are not causing this behaviour. HE is the single reason he drinks too much, rages at what he perceives to be unacceptable behaviour and cheats on his wife and kids. HE is not going to change unless he does some serious soul-searching. I can GUARANTEE you that he is NOT going to live happily ever after with anyone. Not until he seeks change in himself. And there is NO indication that he's going to do that.
      So Ann, you need to save yourself and save your children. No children should live with that level of fear. It's traumatizing. No wife should have to live in fear of her husband's rages. It's traumatizing. Please, please get you and your kids a good therapist who can help you process all this. You have been living in an abusive relationship. And so have your children. You're just beginning to see just how toxic it has been.
      You are so much stronger than you give yourself credit for. Stay focussed. On that future without fear. Without name-calling. Without being blamed for HIS problems.

      Delete
    34. Elle,

      You are right, I am just seeing it now.

      He has mellowed lately. Maybe because he is older now. idk. He says now he just wants peace - he wants to be at peace. He wants the kids to be happy and successful and he wants me to be happy and then him last. He says when he went on his surf camp trip he didn't drink - just was at peace, surfing and learning Spanish - he said it was like a rehab camp - but really cool. Then he said as soon as he came back he has been completely and utterly miserable - once he came back home and we fought I guess, and he was back to real life, money, his crappy crash pad - me and his GF.

      I can't make him go to IC and he said he would - but he hasn't yet so who knows. I just hope he gets help for his own sake.

      I have spoken to my oldest about seeing and IC - I hope she does - she seems to be the one that is stifled the most by all of this. Not in school - not working - just stuck.

      Thanks again Elle! - I have an IC appt. on Feb. 15, I hope he can help me sort through all this.

      Delete
    35. Way to go Ann. Be proud of yourself! This is progress and so happy you get a MC session this week. Kinda nice to know on Valentine’s Day you are your own hero and on the road to mending your heart! Best wishes

      Delete
    36. Thanks Everyone!

      I know I should be feeling good - but I’m not. Just different. It all sucks so much. I know they are still together. HE has a trip there next week. I stupidly looked on Instagram and she is still posting her stupid shit about him. I’m THe Odd MAN OUT. I have nobody. I can’t have sex but they will. I’m alone but they have eachother. I have to go through this struggle and they just have romance and fun.

      I don’t know what his plans are. I just want half his money so he can’t make plans and won’t be able to be the hot shit pilot with all the money and his life sucks.

      I STILL HATE EVERYTHING! I hate him! I hate her and I want to punch her stupid Latin face in!

      It’s still so miserable even though I seem stronger.






      Delete
    37. Ann, please be gentle with yourself. There's no "should" about your feelings. Imagine telling a friend she "should be feeling good" because you got through a difficult interaction with your unremorseful, wayward husband and didn't bite the hooks he laid out for you? Yes you can feel proud that you handled his bs in a new way that puts you in a position of strength, but you can also feel tried, exhausted, sad overwhelmed and like you are on the outside.
      Ann, be kind to yourself about looking her up. We've all done it. It's hard to resist because our brains on trauma want to KNOW what is happening. We search for clues that might help us protect ourselves. Just know that no ones "insta" life is anything like their real life. Trust me this OW has nothing, absolutely NOTHING you want, including a cheating liar of a man. (There is a post on here about how the OW has nothing you want - please try and find it. It helped me so, so much).
      If you are feeling alone, remember you have us here. Reach out to family or a friend or a pastor or your therapist. Who is in your support network? My therapist told me I needed to build a three legged stool for myself. One leg was her. One leg was my sister, who came up for me big time. One leg were my friends. Some knew everything. Some just knew things were tough. And I had the BWC and I made new friends through volunteering. So look around you. I bet more people love you than you are giving yourself credit for.
      Also, please know that whatever they have going on, I promise you it is not all peaches and caviar. They are two miserable broken selfish liars doing their broken dance together. That's sad and pathetic, not romantic. Any time your brain starts picturing that romance, picture him with really bad gas. Seriously. Like he can't speak or move without a giant fart making tuba sounds. Imagine how embarrassed he'd be. Imagine her with the worst yeast infection of her life. How much fun are they having now? None. I know this isn't real, but neither are the visions of romance in your head. Try and give yourself a break there.
      You are allowed to hate everything right now. Do so. Feel those feelings all the way through. Go ahead and picture punching her stupid face. Maybe actually punch a target or a pillow.
      Know that you deserve better than you have gotten, for a long time. These are your first, difficult steps out of an abusive situation. it will get easier. You will be ok. Try to take each day one at a time. keep breathing.

      Delete
    38. And great. He is leaving tomorrow - he’s on vacation until Monday at least. Guess where he is going? I told him if he is leaving tomorrow we need to do the budget and talk about what is going on. I don’t want him to lie to me again. If he is going to see her-I want him to at least own up to it-but he will deny it I’m sure. He is so messed up.

      I am going to see the lawyer sooner and just file for Divorce if I can. Enough If this shit. I am not working anything out with him nicely.

      Delete
    39. So what do you guys suggest?

      I know he is going to go see her next week and on his trips, I’m sure he bid for March and will switch his trips around to see her. I can’t just sit here while he does this and have him come here and stay. But it’s his house too-we are both on the deed of coarse.

      But having him here this week and knowing he is posting Instagram poems to her while he plays video games and eats food and does little else is a little to much to take.

      I am going to see the lawyer next Friday. I GUESS I will wait until I get all the information from that meeting and see what I can do.

      My IC this week said that for guys like my H - they have to hit rock bottom and risk loosing everything before they see what they are doing is wrong. He said seeing the lawyer is a good idea, that I need to have someone on my side and my H needs to know that I have someone on my side that is looking out for me and only me.

      I think my H talks a big game- that I will get half of everything and he is fine with it - that is his affair talkiing I think. He wants to be rid of me for her - at her pushing I think. But in reality-him making half and having half of his retirement will screw his life up emensly. He just started making this big money in the past couple of years. Goodbye condo in Miami, goodbye going out every night, goodbye traveling, goodbye having money to just blow on whatever. I really don’t think he realises all he is going to loose.

      I’ll see the lawyer and hopefully go on my vacation somewhere on a beach and maybe think about it all then. Then decide. But I’m pretty sure the way to go is to just serve him a Separation Agreement and let his GF deal with him.

      BTW-I can change my name by adding something to distinguish all the Ann’s!

      Delete
    40. So my H left today. I don't know where he is going. He has to fly a few days this week and is coming home Saturday night.

      While he was home - it sucked. I kept my distance but without a separation and the lines blurred it is hard. He didn't drink for a few days but then went back off the wagon. He didn't sleep much, and I could tell he was anxious and something was wrong.

      He did tell me that he knows that he has problems. He said that he is not a happy person - that I think he has this great life but he is miserable. I guess he posts things online - life poetry or whatever and a lot of people are concerned about his mental health. I just listened, tried not to get into it. I feel bad for him but I have to keep my distance.

      We left it as - we hopefully will get a mediator, not two lawyers (although I am still going to see a lawyer this week.) We will get a formal separation. I told him we need to put a time frame when we would do the official separation - 2 months maybe? I think that will put us in a position to really take a step away from each other - when it is official. I told him that if he seeks help like he says he wants to and needs to - that I would let him come here and see the kids. He is gone all the time anyway. The time he is here is less than he would get in the separation anyway I think. I guess we will find out if that is all legal - Do we have to show hotel bills on the dates he is here? I don't know.

      I just know that I told him I am taking a huge step back. we can't sleep together - I was using that to feel better - to hold onto something...but it just blurred the lines and made things worse. That I am just concentrating on myself, and the kids. He said that we both just need to work on ourselves and not think of the marriage right now - that who knows, maybe down the line things could work out. I don't have any hope for that. But I guess - who knows - anythings possible.

      I know I will be OK. I have basically been a single parent most of our marriage anyway. I am not worried about that. I will continue to put myself first and take care of myself and my girls.

      As stated before - it's just hard and heartbreaking. With everything that has happened and all the bad times - just thinking of when it was good - in the beginning and how it all has to end. Just really hard.

      I guess the positive is that he knows he needs help.

      I think it is good we have this understanding now. I just want to make it official soon!

      Delete
  9. Not sure if its exactly gaslighting but my husband has an automatic childish reaction if I have problem with something he's done. All excuses and reasons and then he tries to turn it around to some way that I was unreasonable, overreactive or gave him too much of a hard time. He cannot take conflict or blows to his ego (even small ones). At its worst, during the affair it was gaslighting. He would make out that I was unfair or unreasonable or causing the problem. I'm having a real problem right now when he still does this, even though he is in IC and seeing how he reacts to me. It is self-defense all the way (and IC has shown him that I'm seen/alligned in his mind in some way to the father he could never please). I am still fighting a battle with him and my older boys who argue at every turn but I can hear my voice ring out more strongly now and I won't be made feel by any of them that the problem is with me (not saying I'm never in the wrong but even earlier I was trying to address a drastic fall in my older boys school attendance (he was out of school for nearly two years). He started to character assassinate me in order to dodge the issue and put his head in the sand. Said that I was causing the problem. My h is still not in a good way. He walked in on a heated discussion between my eldest and me on a topic that triggers him. He started to bang his head against a wall and went out to the back garden in despair from where he used to text the OW in stressful times. Sometimes I feel we are well back in the past. Lots of stuff coming out in MC now but it's such a long and thankless road.

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    Replies
    1. FOH,
      I know it can sometimes feel as if you're going backwards but it actually sounds as if you're making a lot of progress. YOU sound stronger.
      And yes, sometimes our brains double down on unhealthy behaviour because we're so focussed on it in therapy. But, as long as he keeps going and doing the work, he'll get there. Keep pointing it out to him when he does it, like a broken record. "You are blaming me for something that is not my responsibility" or whatever. I still have to say to my husband sometimes, "I'm sorry you had a bad day but do not take it out of on me." And every single time now, he will stop himself and apologize.
      FOH, you have a lot in your home to deal with. So it's going to take a lot of time and patience. And dealing with a young adult is exhausting at the best of times. But don't back down. You deserve to be treated with respect and kindness. We all do. It's "normal" for a kid to try and dodge responsibility, to find someone else to blame. But it's something they need to be taught is not okay, not mature and not going to work in THIS house.
      I hope you're managing to take some time for yourself to recharge, to "fill your bucket". You need it, FOH.

      Delete
  10. Ann I second everything Elle has said, sometimes we need to hear the cold hard truths. This isn’t going to be a walk in the park of course your going to have moments of hurt and disappointment but like Elle said concentrate on you and what you need to get you through this pain. It’s great your exercising, journaling can really help I tried it when I was in despair and it really helped to get it down on paper. It’s never too late to make new friends Ann, I wouldn’t know where I’d be without mine they are my tower of strength, I have lots of different friendship groups for different things, put yourself out there you’ll be surprised how many people want someone to talk to. You can do this Ann really you can, believe in yourself Ann you have an army of friends here ready to pick you up when your feeling down.. hugs xxx

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  11. Ann it’s great that you can see your h for the violent bully that he is. This will motivate you to separating yourself from him and his behaviour. Try not to concentrate to much on what he needs to do and more on what you need to do, I’m pretty sure your counsellor will help you work on this. Sometimes when you hear a professional tell you he’s abusive it can really sink in. My niece is in a similar situation and it was only when she spoke to a domestic violence helpline and was told that she and her kids were at risk that it hit home hard. She’s still in that situation and will be until she realises that it’s time to leave.

    Ann I’ve seen how you’ve changed in just this last week, your stronger, your processing what’s been happening over the years, your no longer letting him treat you with disrespect this in turn will boost your self confidence and this will continue to grow until you can make some important decisions about your life. It’s a long road Ann but you’ve taken your first steps, well done you, you should be proud of how far you have come..

    Xxx

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  12. Ann how did your appointment with the IC go? Reading about your husbands behaviour is frightening. One: his anger issues Two: honest to god, has he no shame?

    I hope you are still feeling strong and getting out.
    I am so lucky that only ONE of my H's sexual paid partners was on social media. The good thing about it is that I was able to see her leave her "classy" hooker job and become a fast food worker, which I suppose is actually a step up. The others all used fake names (they were ALL hookers who he thought he had found a connection with--spare me.) and one that he was not emotionally attached to only advertised her "specials" on twitter. That's right--"today only, 75.00 an hour, anal included". Nice girls, right? If i had access to their social media I would have lost my mind. When i found his burner phoneI DID have some texting numbers. I didnt handle THAT well at all. I was, without a doubt, a crazy person.

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  13. Steam,

    Wow!! yes what you have dealt with is Crazy! I really hate social media because of my H. And it was so hard to see it all right in front of me! Her pics and love poems about him-and he started to write to her as well. A little to much to take. I can’t look anymore.

    My IC appointment went good. I had written notes about all that had been happening... my IC said I was literally shaking when I tried to recap and process everything in the past couple of weeks. He said to just do stuff with my girls, keep working out, keep busy-that I can’t control him - to not look at social media-if I keep digging it’s just more of the same-I already know it all. He said that I need support. That seeing a lawyer is a Good idea-to have someone on my side. He said that I am a very compassionate Person- that I don’t want to hurt my H - but for guys like my H - they have to risk loosing it all to see thay need help.

    It’s weird-in the past couple of days my H told me he needs help. He said he is not a happy person. I think he realizes that nothing will make him feel good and he is loosing it.

    I tried not to get into it. I tried to just listen. I hope he gets help. As ridiculous as it sounds, I do care for the guy and don’t want him hurting. But I have to keep my distance now for sure.



    Thanks for asking! Hope you are doing well!!!

    ReplyDelete

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