Feeling Stuck: Part 6 (Full. Please post in Part 7)

201 comments:

  1. I have been with my husband for 9 years (married for almost 5 years). I found out last summer that he had been having sex with his ex wife when he went to pick up his 2 kids (we have none together). they started 6 months before we got married and continued for 4 years after we got married. I found out, confronted both of them separately. He stopped it immediately. He claims to have no feelings for her and it was just the act. I know she had feelings for him and got involved with him because she has had no one in her life since they divorced. (He left her for me 9 years ago) She is not attractive at all - one of the reasons he left (long story there). I am still with him, we have gone to 14 hours of therapy etc. I have a hard time moving on. His kids are a constant reminder of the whole thing - the fact that we go to her house every 2 weeks. This is not helping, its like a life sentence. I feel the only way to get through this is by leaving him and having no contact with any of them. I cant understand when he says he loves me with all his heart, but could betray me for almost 5 years and not feel bad about it at the time - only after when I found out.
    help.....

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    1. Hi Anonymous
      Its the same with every husband and wife who cheats , they are never sorry or guilty about anything they do until they get found out , if their affair was never discovered they would never feel or talk of any remorse .How often has anyone read about a partner admitting to an affair without being caught or thinking they will get caught Every time my wife was unfaithful she never felt any guilt right up till D Day , then it was anger that I had caught her out cheating not what she had been doing , I got all the same comments that everyone gets " It really didn't mean anything " etc , etc did she feel guilty the time before I found out or the time before that , NO , did it mean anything the time before I found out YES , if not why did she do it . It's been 12 years for me now since D Day and I only stayed for our children and for most of that time it has been HELL , I meet happy couples socially on a regularly basis and wish to god I was one of them , I am watching the clock ticking till our youngest is old enough to move out then I'm off , don't waste your life like I did , make the choices that you need to make so you will be happy not dreading every 2 weeks , if you can live with that maybe you can make other arrangements about his children but tell him how it effects you and you just can't do it any more

      Alan

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    2. Hi Alan, this is my second marriage and thought this was the marriage of my dreams. No one knows about this mess as no one would ever believe he did what he did. No one could ever think this was possible if you saw what she looks like - not to be mean just stating the truth - he actually downgraded below sea level. His kids don't know nor do mine and that's what makes it hard to pretend that I am not destroyed inside. He is very remorseful yet cant tell me why he did it. It doesn't make sense - if he had no feelings for her - it wouldn't be possible. They had sex in her house while he was picking up the kids in her CLOSET! Her parents would home too - don't know how they both thought no one wouldn't hear any talking not coming from her room - only silence. I feel like such a fool and he made a fool out of me in her eyes. I feel so empty.

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    3. Hi Alan,

      sorry I forgot to thank you for your reply! We don't have kids together which makes me wonder why I am still here. I understand your position with the kids you have with her but for me, its a clean break. My daughters will be devastated and shocked as they love my husband more than their own father. 5 years is my whole marriage! How can someone do that???? He never gave me any reason to doubt him - always treated me well but got defensive whenever I asked him why he still did things for her,.....now I know why. I don't think I can ever get through this - the mental picture of them hurts my heart. He was glad when I found out - I don't think he knew how to stop it but didn't make any effort to not do it at the same time. I am sooo confused and frustrated.

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    4. Anonymous,

      When you say your husband left his wife for you, were you the OW or were they separated or what? That would explain some of his behavior I think. If you were the OW, maybe he feels guilty for leaving or maybe he is just a selfish jerk. Think Alan is right tho why stay especially if you don't have kids. That are lots of Narcissitic people out there and you could probably find another especially if you still have your good looks and youth as you said.

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    5. When we first started talking (we knew each other through work) he didn't know I was divorced and he explained that he wasn't happy in his marriage nor was he in love with her. We were not intimate at all until after he left her. I told him that he would need to decide what he wanted to do with his marriage, but told him I respected his decision if he wanted to stay with her as I had kids of my own and understood. I became the OW after he left not before. He said that he now knew what real love is when we got together. How does someone go back if they "don't have feelings for her" or am I just being taken for a fool? I don't wish to find another at this stage in my life (52 yrs old) - thought I was finally settled and happy. Guess not....but I am independent and want to enjoy my kids and 2 beautiful grandchildren. I want to try one more therapist (female this time) before I finally give up to see if this can be worked out. My feeling is that its not me, but him that needs therapy to figure out what he has done and doesn't know why....

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    6. Anonymous,
      In some ways, I think, the writing was on the wall. He didn't have the courage to leave his wife until there was someone he could go to. In other words, I don't know that he ever really resolved his feelings for his ex-wife because he, in some ways, just replaced her.
      Affairs are rarely about the sex. They are about escape and fantasy. They are about distraction. Avoiding things we don't want to face. He distracted himself with you and by considering a possible future with you (on behalf of all betrayed wives, THANK YOU for making it clear to him that you were not available to him until he left his marriage). Now he's distracting himself with her. His issues likely have nothing to do with you (or, frankly, her) and everything to do with HIM. He's the constant in this scene.
      Whether she looks like a model or a troll is hardly the issue (and, believe me, OW run the gamut). The issue is his inability to stay committed. Unless he's willing to do the hard work of figuring out what the HELL he's doing, it's likely to continue. If not with his ex, then with some other shiny new person who provides a distraction.

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    7. Alan,
      I have to disagree with your assessment that people don't feel guilt until they're caught. I don't think that's always true. I think, from the way you describe your wife, she's a total narcissist who seems incapable to genuine remorse or empathy. And while some cheaters are the same, not all cheaters are. Some are actually decent people who make a really self-centred choice.
      I'm incredibly sorry for the situation you're in. I can hear the simmering resentment toward your wife in every comment you make and I can't imagine how horrible it is to live with that, day in and day out. I really wish, for your sake, you'd try and find a way out of this. The emotional cost of staying might just outweigh the financial/emotional cost of leaving.

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  2. This site has been a port in the storm over the last few weeks...thank you for your commitment to helping others heal, Elle.

    I am almost 8 weeks post d-day. My H and I are in our mid-late 40's and have been married for almost 20 years (together for 25). We've had what I considered to be a decent marriage. We both carry a ton of baggage from childhood issues...me with a disabled, manipulative, alcoholic, "emotionally incestuous" (my psychologist's term) father and an emotionally distant mother, and him with an aggressive bully of a father and a completely emotionally and physically neglectful mother, compounded by sexual abuse by a neighbor when he was 7 (over the course of an entire summer) and severe bullying during his middle school years...but we always loved each other deeply (even though neither knew how to show it) and considered ourselves best friends even when we were treating each other poorly. We just always "knew" we were meant to be together and would stay that way forever.

    My H has a history of cyclical and seasonal depression...something he's suffered from his entire life but never had treated. He'd just power through it, unhappy, feeling unloved, unimportant and sometimes even despondent until the fog lifted and he'd have a few decent months before it would start again. Honestly, even in his decent months, he still suffered from horrible self-esteem issues and what has now been diagnosed as a social communication disorder (stemming from the abuse) where he misinterprets others' body language, facial expressions and verbal communication. For example, he often perceives men as acting aggressively toward him and women of humiliating him because they found him repulsive. In our relationship, he would often mirror back something I said using completely different verbiage and inflection...always to his and my detriment.

    Finally, a couple of years ago, he went to our family doctor and requested anti-depressants. He tried 3 total and none of them gave him any measurable relief, but he just kept taking the last one because it was too difficult to get off of it (Effexor has an extremely short half life and skipping even one dose can be hell). By last summer; however, it was clear that he was in deep trouble. He lost interest in everything. He went to work and typically came home and went to bed as soon as he could (he always made sure to touch base with our kids...2 boys...but he had no energy for much more than that. Admittedly, I did not handle this well. I had begged him to see a psychiatrist to get him the right meds and to find a therapist who could help him deal with his severe childhood trauma...but to no avail. I think a part of him couldn't handle dealing with his issues because he felt that he had tucked them away in a box and was afraid of what opening the lid might do. In any case, my own issues make it very difficult for me to deal with anyone who I might perceive as "weak" or manipulating me emotionally. So, my husband would tell me that he didn't feel like I truly loved him for who he was...that I loved the ideal I had of who I wanted him to be...that I didn't find him physically attractive (I sound like an ass saying this, but he's spent our entire relationship having people "joke" about how they don't understand how he "caught" me because I am much more physically attractive than he is)..that he never made enough money...and so forth. My response was generally, "Knock this crap off...of course I love you...I'm with you, aren't I?". I could never find it in myself to stroke his ego (thanks for that, dad) and our marriage was pretty damned miserable for both of us at that point.

    Dana

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  3. Part 2

    Now, please humor me while I lay the groundwork for d-day.

    Around October, H came home from work very upset...almost in tears. His co-worker had confided in him that her live-in fiance was physically and sexually abusing her (she only told him after he accidentally saw bruises on her arms when she was reaching for something and her sleeve came up). He begged her to get out of the house and find somewhere else to live, but she told him she was too scared and she still loved the guy. Over the next few months, my H would periodically tell me stories about her and the abuse, but seemed as if he was just being supportive of a friend and was waiting for the time when she'd finally accept help and move out.


    Then, in January, he came home and told me she was ready and he was going to start helping her move out. I ended up offering for her to stay in our home for a few days until we could find an alternate place. Once I met her, I knew immediately that she was, at the very least, infatuated with H. She gazed at him as if he'd hung the moon and made a lot of references to me about how wonderful he was and how well they knew each other. I assumed that she was thinking of him as her knight in shining armor and tried not to be a bitch about it. Well, that lasted all of 2 days before she became psycho-bitch from hell. She'd get angry if he refused to sleep on the sofa across from the one she slept on (she said she only felt safe when he was there), she started stopping conversations when I entered the room (even though I could hear them beforehand and they were innocuous), and, in general, she began acting erratically (we found out later that she was abusing amphetamines) to the point where my H told her she had to leave. He said that he had never seen that side of her.

    After she left, we found out that most of what she had been telling him about her relationship was all lies. She'd accused her fiance of stalking her, putting a hidden GPS on her car, tapping into her phone records, etc...when in actuality, it was HER doing those things to HIM. (We saw physical proof, by the way) She has borderline personality disorder and is diagnosed with narcissism (her family filled us in). She claims to have excellent relationships with her long distance family, when in fact they avoid her like the plague. Also, it came to light that she has a long, kind of scary record with HR at the company where they work...which H wasn't told about when he started working with her because there is a policy in place that prohibits discussion of those incidences, as they involved other employees' privacy rights.

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  4. Part 3

    So, fast forward to 8 weeks ago, when I caught my husband in a lie about being in contact with her, and he admitted that, back in September, they had a 3 week physical affair. Now, the contact he had with her was not in any way romantic at that point (he was furious, confused and humiliated that he'd been taken for such a ride), but he told me that he couldn't continue lying to me anymore.


    Last Summer, she had noticed that he was feeling "down" and had started bringing him homemade treats, stopping for fancy coffee for him on the way to work, telling him how handsome and smart he was...you get the picture. H says he was so relieved to have someone adoring him that it actually felt like some of the depression was lifted. So, when she finally made her move, all he knew is that he didn't want that feeling to stop. He says that he never even thought of the possibility that their work friendship would turn into something sexual, but when she made it clear that that was what she wanted, a part of him felt desirable and important. She told him he was the best man she'd ever met (imagine wanting to help turn that great man into a cheater?), and she was probably right...he really was a good man, someone NO ONE would ever think could betray his wife and family. He tells me that, for him, it was never about the sex...that the sex was, in fact, awkward and uncomfortable because of the logistics (no beds, no comfort, just quick "getting off") and his guilt...but about wanting to please her the way she pleased him with her adoration. After about 3 weeks, he told her that he didn't want to continue the physical affair...that they should just go back to being friends, and she agreed. He didn't see her for a week or so afterward (they no longer worked in the same office) and then, when he did see her again, she "accidentally" let him see her bruises.

    Now, with a lot of questioning and a great deal of pushing, he's been trying to piece everything together...which is very difficult considering his depression, her manipulation and the resulting confusion. He now more clearly sees just how planned out the entire thing was...from the very beginning. By the way, he now knows that she has a history of this sort of thing...her current fiance was married to one of their co-workers when she began an affair with him and she has had multiple affairs with other co-workers. She's actually quite mentally ill...but extremely intelligent, so she's downright dangerous. It seems that she had never not "gotten" a man she wanted and she set out to tie my husband to her in any way she could. She knew that H's father had been abusive toward his mother and sisters and that she'd found his Achilles Heel. She has since expressed that my H "broke her heart" and that he was the only man she ever truly wanted. H assumes that is a bunch of crap, but I'm inclined to believe her. All of her men have been absolute assholes...and, prior to this situation, H really was a hell of a stand-up guy. She also told him that she's angry that he "gets to work on having a better marriage" while her relationship has fallen apart (remember, we're talking about the guy she claimed abused her heinously). It's apparent that her entire manipulation was to end our marriage and she's angry that it didn't work out that way.

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  5. Part 4

    He has no interest in so much as looking at her, so the NC hasn't been too much of a problem...aside from the few times she has attempted to talk to him to "apologize" where he cut her off and walked away. She's now been informed by me in a group email between the 3 of us that she is not to continue trying to call him or see him. So far, that's worked (she learned when she was staying here that I am nothing like the other wives whose husbands she's stolen...I'm extremely supportive when someone needs help, but I don't pull any punches when it's necessary to protect those I love).


    So, now, where does all of this leave us?? Well, we had committed to working on our relationship a few months ago (before d-day) and had made some pretty decent headway...falling in love with each other all over again. But, he'd been lying to me for months, so I feel like it was all kind of a sham. He is a completely broken man right now...devastated by what he's done to me. He is seeing a psychiatrist and is slowly changing his meds (which seems to be working) and we are seeing a therapist together. He's willing to give me all the time I need to come to a conclusion about our marriage (although, it completely tears him to shreds when I cry and scream and lament what he's done to me) and he never stops telling me how sorry he is. He's told me that I'm his soulmate, his best friend and that he can't even imagine a life without me. He says he never stopped loving me, that he doesn't understand how he could have done that to me and that he'll spend the rest of his life proving that he's the man I thought he was...only better because now he's getting help for his issues and has come to realize that he has a lot of work to do to be the kind of husband I deserve. I, too, have had to acknowledge the ways I've failed our marriage...I am extremely critical (thanks, mom), I have an obsessive need to be in control, and I have never allowed myself to behave in a way that would make H think that he had the upperhand with me...I needed him to need me, love me, and want me more than I did him. He NEVER excuses what he's done, but I know that our personality traits and the resulting rift in our marriage, coupled with his severe depression, played a large part in making him vulnerable to someone who knew just what buttons to push.

    Since d-day we've been bonding MOST hysterically, barely able to tolerate being away from each other for longer than is absolutely necessary. However, I can, at the drop of a hat, start crying in utter despair, need to ask an affair related question (I, apparently, just love to pain shop), or get absolutely pissed that he did this to me. The thing is, I love this man...more than I realized, I think. I never knew that my love for him was unconditional like this. In the midst of all of the sadness and anger, I still feel empathy for him, for his old wounds and for how he made choices these past few months that have actually made him feel even worse about himself.

    BUT, while I think I can forgive what he's done (at least, I hope so), I have no idea how to ACCEPT that it's now a part of our narrative and move forward. This wasn't supposed to happen to US. We were the survivors, through thick and thin. And no matter how many times I ask "How COULD you?", he really can't answer that. He has no idea how he could have become that man...all of the lies he had to tell, the gaslighting he engaged in, the cruelty all of that entailed.

    Any suggestions or just words of encouragement would be most appreciated. I'm sure I've left important details out of the story, so feel free to ask for clarification if needed. I'm just really hoping for a little clarity here.

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    1. Dana,
      That's one helluva story. Let me digest it but, in the short term, please know that this site is full of some with "one helluva story" so you are most definitely NOT alone. And please don't ever apologize for sharing it, whether long, short or in between. We all know your pain, your anger, your disbelief that this is your life.

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  6. Oh dear, I wrote a novel. I promise, I'm not always so verbose. I apologize if my story is tedious to read and difficult to understand given how disjointed it is!

    Dana

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    1. Dana,
      My H and I have a similar family history to you and your H. I am 22 months out from DDay and I can tell you that it get's better. It is a process. If you know you are doing the right thing, then you are. Stick to your guns (I'm the same way). I pain shopped for the first 6 months and then started to let it go. It took me 8 months to finally delete the painful texts between my H and the OW. The mind movies fade. I still get them from time to time, but not as often and my H and I are like newly weds again. We can't get enough of each other. Keep that "hysterical" bonding going. The intimacy keeps you connected too. I think I read this blog to remind myself to never get complacent again and because I have made it through the hardest thing I have ever had to go through and I want to offer any helpful advice I can. Cry when you need to cry. Be kind to yourself and never forget yourself. You are strong. I can hear it in your story. You will come out on the other side stronger and in a better marriage. Maybe you needed something big to happen so your H would final get help. It would have preferably been something that does not include betrayal, but we can't always choose the big thing that shakes up our world. My H and I had communication issues and family baggage that led to our situation, but we fixed it all and we are better for it. We aren't perfect, but we are happy. I wish you the best.

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    2. Julie,
      Thank-you so much for sharing your story and offering up your support to Dana. It's amazing, really, how similar our stories are in terms of our response to betrayal. So glad that you've worked your way through the worst of it and can see light ahead. And yes, I wouldn't have chosen betrayal either but, like you, my husband's world needed a bit of shaking and this is what has brought him to a far healthier place.

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  7. Hi. So firstly I want to say thankyou for hosting this site. It's been a great place to come and read, and reflect.

    My story is this : about 11 years ago when I found out I was pregnant with our third child my husband had a sexual affair with a woman nearby. I caught him, he apologised and ended it. I was too busy being pregnant and dealing with two small children to deal with it much more than that. We had been married about six years at this time.

    Fast forward four more years and I find a message on his phone that doesn't make sense...turns out he had got really drunk with some old buddies and woke up naked with a girl...but not too drunk he couldn't take her number. This was a one off though, and again I freaked and he moved out. I moved on and we were, I thought, done....but a few months after separating we decided to try again. He was a shadow of his former self and I really, truly believed he had changed.

    We had our fourth and final baby, then moved 500 miles nearer family.

    Guess what! He had a texting affair with a girl ten years younger. I caught him again. He apologised, said it was really nothing at all and stopped dead. I believed him. Things were good.

    Now, four weeks ago he returns from a business trip and I knew when I picked him up from the airport he was up to no good. I checked his phone the next day and Bingo! A new girl! She was different though, because the others didn't know he was married with children. She herself was married and knew all about us. She just didn't care. I confronted him, he apologised and agreed to counselling. Then I find that he is still texting her (they are an Atlantic Ocean apart) and he has arranged a thoughtful three hour gap in his next business trip to meet her for coffee.

    Well, I lost it. I mean I took the car and drove away for both our safeties. I left the kids with him and let him pick up the slack of explaining why I had just gone out.

    That night I broke my heart to him. He said he felt terrible, he was never going to really meet her but he realised he had bitten off more than he could chew with this one, and she wasn't going away quietly.

    He has ended it now. He will still have to travel (not near her as she isn't on his route)

    But I am left floored. I have divorced parents and their divorce was awful. It made me determined never to put my kids through it. So I'm stuck in a marriage with a man that I love, but that I know will hurt me again and again for the rest of my life...an do have to suck it up.

    I need help moving forward. He isn't a bad man. He is a great father and a great guy in many ways. We have good sex, make each other laugh and have been through plenty of other stuff.

    He admits he isn't great at dealing with feelings. He admits to getting bored when he travels. He had an odd childhood with neither of his parents very present, and certainly no one talked about feelings at all!

    I know if I didn't have kids, I would have cut my losses a long time ago. But I do have kids, and I can't hurt them.

    So, advice please?

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    1. My advice is this: Insist that he get counselling immediately to help him figure out why he's jeopardizing what sounds like a great marriage and family over women who mean absolutely nothing to him. What is he getting out of that? How can he learn to manage feelings like loneliness or boredom in ways that don't jeopardize his marriage and family. Give him some time to get clear on this and in the meantime, you get clear on whether you want to give him a second chance. If you honestly believe he's going to continue to hurt you over and over, then the only sane thing to do is to get out as amicably as possible. But if you think he's a good man who's made some mammoth mistakes, then give him the chance to get himself straight. What that also entails is giving you access to any and all electronics, e-mail accounts, social media accounts, etc. He's lost any right to privacy until he can prove that he's being honest and faithful.
      That's what I did...and I don't regret it. I always figured I could leave if the situation changed for the worse. Instead, it continues to get better.

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  8. Anonymous,

    Here's the thing you need to wrap your head around. Unless you are making your husband use a condom you really are at risk for a STD. That can be serious stuff. In my case I think the Head and Neck cancer I developed many yrs after my husband's 2 affairs was a result from HPV.
    Interesting comment that the last female knew he was married and didn't care. My husband's first flight attendant was married and she sure didn't care either and the single FA was a single mom and wasn't bothered at all. In fact when my husband broke it off she was so irate that she came to the house with a suitcase full of souvenirs from their affair including a letter naming the first OW. That was something I never knew until then. And traveling, yeah it's boring to have to sit in airports and so much more fun to pretend you're in hs again and just hook up. Much easier to escape the boring responsibilities of being a dad and maybe actually Face timing with the kids before going to the hotel room for some fun. I'm sure others will weigh in but the number one thing I would suggest is to see a therapist because you're putting up with crap!

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    1. Hi Pilots wife
      It's not only STD'S that happen I found out that my wife got pregnant during her affair and had an abortion because she didn't know who the father was , about a month after my D day I found a tax receipt from a woman's clinic about her abortion which she had about 3 months before my D day , I guess he must have taken her to the clinic then driven her home after it . My wife's OM was also married , it's interesting with either unfaithful husbands or wife's even if they are lucky enough for their marriage to survive they have no concerns about the damage they do to their OP's marriage or family
      What is so damaging is the trickle feed of lies and information that occurs after D day and how dumb and stupid I felt that this affair had been going on for at least 6 months and I believed all her lies

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    2. Anonymous,

      I agree but many yrs after the affair with the married flight attendant my husband admits that was the affair that bothers him the most. Considering he was raised in an ultra conservative religious family that went to church every Sunday the only way he can forgive himself is to say that Satan makes sin attractive. Looking back I don't think it was a conscious decision to have an affair at the time but once in the room, a few drinks later, and oh golly her husband who worked too much she was so happy to be appreciated by the young Captain. Makes me sick still. Yeah I felt I was really stupid but who thinks much when they're changing poopy diapers and is sleep deprived. And look at the news. General Petraeus 4 stars and how dumb was that?! Throw in John Edwards, Clinton, and the rest. Big egos make for good targets.

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    3. Hi Pilots's wife
      There are a couple if things in your reply that apply to me , w are also a regular church going family and I know that for about 6 months before my D day every Sunday my wife was swanning around church showing everyone what a good christian mother she was then 2 or 3 nights a week of with her OM then back to church the next Sunday as if nothing was wrong . At least I have been able to correct that because after my D day I took the children to church without her and told a few people why she was not there and she has not been back to church for the last 12 years which has added to her hatred of me . . You talk about Satan , what has really effected me so much is her abortion , she took the decision to kill another man's baby or she killed mine , I don't know which and she doesn't know either , but I have never forgiven her for doing that and I never will .Talk about being dumb and stupid , I was passed the poopy nappies stage but every night she was out , I made dinner , feed all the children , bathed them , got them into bed and on the nights when there was school teacher night , scouts , girl guides , swimming , etc I had to take the 5 of them with me then wait till she got home . I still find i'm so disgusted and humiliated because every night she got home late I kissed her , now I know that 15 minutes before I kissed her what she was doing with this OM .
      Good luck , you are a much more forgiving person than I am
      Alan

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    4. Hi Alan,
      I don't think I'm that forgiving but at the age of 65 and decades of holding onto anger and resentment I've become weary of wasting my life on the affair women. Obviously I'm not over it because I'm on this site but enough curveballs like cancer and an elderly soon to be bankrupt mother has put other things on the center stage. I did all the stuff you talk about while my husband was gone, basically the single mom for more than half the month, but you did what a good parent should. Being an elem teacher for most of my career, putting effort into raising your kids is the best thing to do with your life. And sometimes when the sad thoughts coming floating back, I remind myself that my husband isn't George Clooney in the bedroom. And doubt he was any better with them. So now as I look back life is too short for regrets

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    5. Hi Pilots wife
      I wish I had found this site a long time ago because this is the first time Iv'e been able to talk to people who understand what it's like to waste so many years , I'll turn 60 this year and if it wasn't for the children i would wish that we had never meet . I have wasted 42 years with this woman , I know i'm no saint but I did really try to give her everything she wanted but it was never enough and I was so bloody dumb to think that if I loved her enough she would change but she never did , some people who know her well have suggested it is some form of mental illness but I think that is a cop out she was just born a liar and a cheat and a whore and I was dumb enough to marry her , I'd love you to send me a copy of no regrets 101 so I can study it
      Alan

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    6. Hello all,

      I can't say this strongly enough. If anyone reading here even suspects their partner/spouse is betraying them -- PLEASE require (demand) they wear a condom when and if you are still having sex with them. I completely agree with Pilots Wife in this arena. You have absolutely NO way of knowing WHO your partner/spouse is having sex with. Even if you know the person, are related to the person or work with the person -- you will never know if that OW/OM has a STD until you get it yourself. I do not care if the affair partners are "clean", religious, educated, rich or poor, thin or fat, beautiful or ugly -- they can and many times DO have STD's to pass on to their unsuspecting sex partners.

      I got tested at the local health clinic AND at my private GYN doctor. I will go again in June 2015 (1 year) to get tested again. The clinic test was completely NEGATIVE but the private GYN showed changes in my PAP smear which will be checked again in June. Get tested folks, get tested.

      Remember there is NO ""safe"" sex. There is only ""safer"" sex. HPV and syphilis ( and others) can both be transmitted when a condom is worn.

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  9. Hi All, I wanted to give you all an update of what's happened AND I'm feeling lonely, anxious, and frightened. I'm not sue if I mentioned that H and I went to see a new therapist who determined we're both fucked up and we don't need couples counseling we need individual counseling. I start with him tomorrow. H has yet to find someone he feels as comfortable with, but that's his walk. The obsessive thoughts are the worst for me. I go over scenarios over and over. I ask him question after question. The only thing H really cared about was that I not find out. It's so very difficult to wrap my head around this. That was all he cared about. Of course he didn't want me to get hurt and he didn't want to get caught. As long as I don't know what's going on, it's ok. I think about all of it - what I was doing 5 months ago - working my ass off, doing the bulk of the childcare, coming home to a backyard full of dog shit because H was too "busy working". Yes, he was too busy working on fucking his way across Los Angeles. H was having an entire other life - having sex with women he'd met online, getting one of them pregnant from a failed condom, paying her off with money he drained from the 401K, but not before sleeping with her two more times. She was adamant on keeping the child as it would have been an in to the US for her. I'm wondering what sort of message that could have sent to her...here's 20K for your abortion, now let's have sex again. There was an entire other life going on with fun from sex, fear from a pregnancy - I'm mean, my god, that must have been stressful coming home and keeping up appearances. I've asked him to take me over to her apartment. Good idea or bad idea? Of course there's the curiosity factor - how beautiful is she, so that I can feel even more shitty about myself? There's also the H test. Is he willing to do anything, and I mean anything it takes for me to self soothe, heal, including taking me straight to her front door. If he would say no, that's too telling. So far, it's yes, when do you want to go? I know humans get over and survive the most gut wrenching life experiences, but when I look at all that's happened and the choices he made, I'm just not sure I can move past this with him. I know we'll always be friends and co-parent our beautiful daughter together, but that his only consideration of me was that I didn't find out, well, I'm not sure how to move forward. We love one another deeply. We have so many things in common. I'm still so attracted to him and vice versa. We have great sex. We have a daughter together. He says he's willing to explore all these aspects of why he would act out in the most family destructive of ways, but I just don't understand this. There's the snarky side of me that mocks his pain - oh, poor H, you were hurting so much in your life that you needed to go out and fuck some people. That must have been really hard for you. This isn't my best self. There's also the thought that isn't life just difficult enough? People get sick. Parents die. Kids die. People get laid off, etc, etc. Why throw this crap in the mix? When this first happened, H bought me a card with a quote on the front from Ram Dass: "Healing does not mean going back to way things were before". I believe that and yet, I feel like I'm just running in circles and I feel so tired. When does it get better?

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    1. Yes of course she wanted to keep her anchor baby to stay here. That's not a new game but your husband walked in eyes wide open. And how can you know for sure if it were a failed condom. Maybe none at all. But I definitely wouldn't see yoga lady. Why give her the satisfaction that you care? Indifference is more insulting, isn't it? And as Elle also says, why shop for pain. What you're going through with the nonstop mind movies, seeing her will just fuel it. Give yourself a half hour a day to grieve, play the movies, and just say f--- it! My life is going by and I don't know how many days I have left on earth for this crap!

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    2. V,
      I could have written every word of your post. I was so angry and bitter and determined to somehow make him pay for the pain I was in, and I was so self-destructive because I didn't know any other way than to make my pain visible.
      Please hang on to your therapist like a liferaft.
      Do NOT go see the OW. She, honestly, is a prop. She meant nothing to him, she likely has huge issues of her own. Recognize that hurting her (or hurting yourself by seeing her) will do nothing but make this worse.
      V, you're tired because you are running in circles. You're trying to make sense of nonsense. Affairs are not logical. They are not sane. Nobody in his right mind would inflict that sort of pain on someone they love, nor that level of chaos into their own life. Affairs are the acts of messed up people.
      So...sounds as those all of this is giving both of you the chance to go back and heal some deep, long buried wounds. Take that chance. It will hurt and it will be hard and it will take time. No matter. It's still a gift to be able to heal old wounds that continue to hurt you even now, whether or not you're aware of it.
      It gets better when you begin to recognize that his cheating has nothing to do with you and everything to do with his own need to escape himself. It gets better when you nurture yourself, when you comfort yourself in healthy ways. Treat yourself like you would a close friend. You'd pour her a bath. You'd let her sleep. You'd spoil her and let her cry.
      Healing doesn't mean going back to the way things were before. No matter whether you two stay together or not, you both have some healing to do. Give yourself time to do it. Make it your priority. I promise you'll get there.

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  10. Anon, this is a problem if your husband continually (although with time gaps) continues his behavior. and it has nothing to do with you and EVERYTHING to do with him. Bored? I'm bored right now. My H is out of town and I am bored to tears. What I am not doing in the midst of my boredom is trolling for an affair. My family did not express feelings at all except anger and happiness (there was no nuance, no in-between--I believe my H's was quite the same.) I believe you believeing your husband is a good man, so is mine. I also believe he has got to understand that alongside his goodness lies a dark side that he is not facing, seeing that he gets into these situations over and over and over again. Betraying not just you, but four children.
    Have you thought about counseling? You deserve much much more than he is giving you. (and as Pilot's wife reminds you---you deserve nothing he might TRANSMIT to you) You must believe that and certainly you know that you are worth much more than this. I am not saying leave your husband. I am saying you only live once and you deserve a connected marriage that does not include other people on the side.

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  11. Call me anonx4 if it's easier :) there are a lot of anons on here.

    I am having counselling, and she's a great help. She made me aware that a lot of my problems stem from my parents divorce and that I need to work on resolving that before tackling anything else.

    At the moment I'm applying the logic I use for my running to my marriage. When I run I push myself to run to the next tree/ stop sign/ lamp post and see how I feel when I get there. Sometimes I can run a bit further, and sometimes I need to walk or stop and stretch. This is what I am doing each day. Making it to a milestone I have in my head or on the calendar.

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    1. Anonx4,
      I did the exact same thing (I'm a runner too) and this is a marathon, not a sprint. Just focus on the (figurative) sound of your feet on the pavement. Right now, you are fine. Right now, you are breathing. Right now, you are strong and able. Rest. Be gentle with yourself. Take advantage of this time to heal your pain around your parent's divorce so you don't drag that along behind you.
      We're all cheering for you on the sidelines.

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  12. Thank you for the responses. Today is not the greatest day. oH is away for the first time since dday and I'm struggling to get my head round it.

    I have to be normal as I have four kids to look after, and family visiting tomorrow. I've actually blocked oh on Facebook and whatsapp as I found myself stalking him - and it felt horrible. We had an arguement and I've asked him to leave me in peace until he returns as I hate text conversations.

    I just don't feel he is making any effort, and he said he feels he is constantly on trial and is finding my constant questioning exhausting! I can kind of understand that, but wondering about whether he is being truthful is also exhausting.

    And even though he said there was no sex with the last two, I have had a full run of std tests and all came back negative, so that's peace of mind.

    It feels that right now, letting go is easier.

    Anonx4

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    1. Anonx4,
      Argh!! I get so incredibly frustrated with spouses who cheat...and then get "exhausted" by our futile attempts to actually find a way to give them a second chance. It's like this: We WANT to believe the best about our spouse. We're desperate to understand this in order to be able to re-establish even the teensiest bit of safety into our relationship. I've heard (more than a few times) women describe learning about their spouse's betrayal as worse than sexual assault. Unless you've been through it, you can't imagine how excruciating it is to learn that someone you trusted has betrayed that trust. But here's the thing: You're trying to give him the chance to deserve the second chance. And he's "exhausted". Well, his "exhaustion" just might cost him his marriage. He thinks it's agony being held accountable for what he did? Well try being in the betrayed's shoes.
      Read this, ask him to read this...and then you two can decide if he's willing to do whatever it takes to help you heal: http://betrayedwivesclub.blogspot.ca/2014/04/my-letter-to-husbands-just-talk-about.html

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  13. This is a question for Elle:

    Sam here, over 1 1/2 years past 1st d day. I no longer ask for details. He doesn't remember how many times, where or when and at this point it doesn't matter. I have moved on to deeper more insightful questions:

    This morning my husband was telling me he's going to do a favor for another physician and cover his call even though it's the night before we start our vacation bc he feels bad saying no. This other doctor has done such call switches where he did my husband a favor. Also, this doctors wife recently was killed in a hit and run & he wants the day off as part of his vacation to take his son on a trip. All admirable reasons to do him a favor.

    But How does the same person who takes call because he feels bad for a colleague & his son & doesn't feel right saying no cheat for 2 years just after getting married, tell another woman he has feelings for her, then cheat again with a 3rd woman for at least 6 months, then start up texting at least 2 other women that he wants to fuck them & not feel bad? How can that be the same person?

    You are always saying to stop trying to apply logic to affairs which are illogical. Is that it? Is that the only explanation we have?

    Sam

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    1. I don't think it's quite as simple as illogic. I suspect it has more to do with your husband's desire to please people -- to be a hero. On the one hand (filling in for the doctor), it looks very magnanimous. What a great guy, helping a friend, etc. And it is nice of your husband, assuming you're okay with it since it affects getting ready for vacation. On the other hand, he's stroking the ego of other women (not to mention his own) with his cheating. Looking like the studly man-about-town. Similar motives (to look important, feel indispensable, etc.) applied to dramatically different situations.
      It's why I often remind all of us (ME included most of all) to check our motives when we're trying to figure out how to proceed. It's almost impossible to consider every possible motivation. But it is possible to get clear on when I'm allowing my desire to be liked take priority over what's actually best for me, best for my family, best for the world. Our egos frequently convince us to do some pretty stupid things.
      So...from what I know of you and your husband and your situation, I suspect his ego does a lot of decision-making for him. Doesn't mean every decision is wrong (such as helping out this other doctor). But it does mean that the motive isn't necessarily pure.
      Does that help at all? My two cents...

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  14. Hi All, An update... I had my first solo session with my new therapist who basically told me I need to proceed with zero hopes or expectations of this marriage surviving this. He told what a healthy sounding husband sounds like in a scenario such as mine: "This is what I did, this is why I did it, this is what I'm doing about it/learned about it, and this is what I/you need to look out for so this doesn't happen again". I understand where he's coming from. He gave me some very good and useful tools to check in with my body and help me identify my feelings. H is on the lookout for a therapist of his own and I suspect if he has no fire under his ass to find one in a timely manner, he needs to move out. Moving forward as if the relationship is over is a bit challenging when we're still living together, sleeping together, eating together and making plans. I understand where he's coming from, I just don't know how to fully implement this. Perhaps time will just implement it for me?

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    1. V,
      Your therapist is right. You need to make your boundaries really clear. If you proceed, acting as if nothing has really changed, then your husband will breathe a sigh of relief and carry on accordingly.
      You need to set some really clear boundaries about what you need from him and when you need it. And then set consequences (they MUST be consequences that you plan to carry out. No empty threats). For instance, he moves onto the couch until he makes an appointment with a therapist for weekly sessions, or until he provides all passwords to his computer, etc. Or whatever. This isn't about manipulation or control. It's about figuring out what you need in order to give him a second chance. It's about self-respect. It's about addressing your own needs and ensuring your own safety.
      A husband who doesn't recognize what he's done to you, and isn't willing to do the hard work to help you heal from it, isn't the best candidate for reformed cheater. You clearly want this to work...but he has to want it too and be willing to work hard for it.

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  15. I've stopped applying logic to my husbands affair, he walked through a shopping centre with another mans wife. But after a quick MacDonalds last Xmas, we walked out with our milk shakes and before cutting through a department store to reach our car he stopped and said 'oh don't think we should take food inside' !!
    Loving my holiday in USA and your weather, Gid Bless xx

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  16. Logic?? What on earth is that?? Well folks I will tell you about something logical. HIMSELF started talking to a cute young female perfect stranger in a store. That stranger told him she wanted to go to church (yeah right). Next day that stranger called HIMSELF (out of the blue) and said she was ready to go to church and he should come pick her up. STUPID went to pick her up and CLAIMS he took her to church and then out to dinner. I know for sure he took her for dinner because they took a cell phone photo together in the restaurant. Church?? Nope. When HIMSELF does occasionally go to church he ALWAYS gets the bulletin/program for that Sunday. I've not seen that bit of paperwork. Of course this happened in 2011 and I was not looking for anything because I did not know anything was going on in 2011. By the way, he was also still involved with the other long term "affair partner" who continued to be his affair partner for the next 3+ years. Logic??? There is no logic in betrayal. For all of 2013 and until 5/2014 HIMSELF always took his long term affair partner to an expensive hotel that is right next to where I grocery shop. That hotel is also less than 1/4 mile from a restaurant where he and I eat on occasion. Logic?? Nope, nope, nope...

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  17. Jane I love ur analogy. Thanks for writing.

    A few months after I found out abt the 2011 affair I asked him why does he carry around a pic of the ow 4 year old daughter in his scrub pocket-- it had been there for 3 years. He said he felt bad throwing it away because she was just a little girl. I asked him what kind of warped morals is that-- u care abt that but not abt what u did to ur life partner.

    His answer was to give me her pic & say he never thought abt it like that.

    I think as hard as I try I will never understand it-- the paradox of how someone with morals could do these seemingly contradictory things.

    Sam

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    1. You're right Sam. And I would add...what he was doing to your children. Men never seem to think that by betraying their children's mother, they're betraying their children. I've often heard it said that the best thing a parent can do for his/her kids is love the other parent.

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    2. My own H has tried to say that he wasn't betraying our children when he had his affair. He had honestly never allowed himself to believe that he was risking our marriage and family unit. He'd never planned to leave me or the kids for her or to have anything long term with her, so he didn't think of it in those terms.

      When I pointed out to him exactly what he'd done to them as well, he was just devastated. He'd always worked to be the father he'd never had and to realize that he'd put their happiness at risk was a real blow to him. H is one of those men who never intended for me to find out what he'd done. He wanted it to just go away and never think of it again....so he just never considered any fallout to our children.

      Dana

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  18. Hi All, I'm onto a new frequency of thought and I could use some insight and advice. H and I are still living together. He has two therapy appointments lined up for himself on his journey to find a really good one that he connects with. I'm suppose to be moving in the direction of giving up all expectations of this working out. I shake my head at this because as long as we're in the same house, having sex, eating dinner together, making plans and on and on, I just don't see how all the expectations go out the window. Last night and today I fell into a state of anger and today I'm in the place of H moving out. I'm not even sure how we would swing this financially as H has drained a 401K of $25K to pay for an abortion and we just got finished paying an extra $5K on taxes on that which now brings us up to $30K. It took me 5 months to claw my way to bottom of this barrel. The bottom never seemed to be the bottom and H was too afraid to tell me everything all at once. What that translated into was a new discovery of bullshit every month or every other week. I've been barely able to function for 5 and half months, but H's life has gone on. Sure, he feels bad for hurting me, but he doesn't hurt the way I hurt. I think the only way he'll feel is if he's out of the house thinking about what he's lost. There was no consciousness of consequences. As long as I didn't find out about it, it was ok. And now, his life goes on. He's not in agony. He doesn't pick himself off the floor everyday. I'm not sure what to do. Am I lashing out? Does he deserve to even be here? The other piece in my head is I'll be single parenting it to some extent and I need help right now with my little girl. He does help me. Sometimes, I feel incapable of parenting - another thing to tack on my resentment list. The horrible feelings over the last couple of days are eating me alive. I would drain our other 401K for 5 minutes of peace. Thank you, as always.

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    1. Hi V
      Have you talked to a lawyer to protect your financial situation , I know the law is some what different from country to country but here he will be financial responsible for that child . I had to take out a restraining order against my wife to ensure that all expenses needed joint signatures , early on in her affair she signed up for a credit card in joint names without my knowledge and used it to pay for her abortion and buy so many gifts for her other man , all up about $ 8000 worth which in the end I got stuck with the bill , which proved to me that she was really paying him to have sex with her and the joke was on me because I really paid for him to have sex with her

      Now we no longer have a joint bank account or any joint credit cards , we both put money into a household account to cover those costs and as we both work we spend our own money on ourselves , I have no idea what she spends her money on and I don't care . I guess it is because it's been so long since our marriage ended and it probably is that men handle unfaithfulness quite differently from woman i drew a line in the sand a long time ago about worrying about who she is involved with . Please think about talking to a lawyer along with your counselor

      Alan

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    2. Elle

      A couple of questions , is it a woman's thing to want to know the details about their partners affair , it seems to be the case from so many stories here , from my point of view on day one of my D day the only questions I asked my wife were , 1. What was so wrong with our marriage for her to have an affair 2. Was it worth it for her to destroy our marriage over it .

      I knew as soon as I found out about her affair that I no longer loved her because of her unfaithfulness and I no longer believed or trusted her because of the lies she told me and the secrets she kept about her affair and the fact she never made a single comment about being sorry or regretting what she did . From then on there was no real anger or hatred of her I just felt nothing for her , our marriage was over so why waste time feeling anything for her .
      Is that a strange was to handle her affair or is it the way a lot of men handle their wife's affair

      Look forward to your answer

      Alan

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    3. V,

      Hold on to the thoughts that feelings change. At five and half months, you have many miles to go before you can think clearly. Do what is best for you and your young daughter. If it helps to have your husband on site for co parenting then do it and take walks or whatever can get you some space to think. With my husband's job, he was gone a lot and that helped in many ways. I took off whe he came home and would go places just to think. I would be furious if I were you that he used up so much of your savings. That's a lot to forgive if he isn't acting truly remorseful. Hope you can find answers in therapy but just realize this pain is part of grief work. It's not one straight line and you're done. 27 yes after dDay with our anniversary in two wks, I still won't celebrate that day.

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  19. Dana that's exactly how my husband felt. He never intended to leave either; didn't see it as risking his family because he thought we'd never find out. He says now he realizes he's not so good as he thought. Now that he sees my pain he says he will never do it again & has sworn off women. I guess some people are more afraid of possible consequences of their actions than others and some people need to experience a bad outcome to defer them from future bad decisions/ actions.

    Sam

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  20. I am not a wife yet. My fiance cheated on me about 5 months in. We had developed a close friendship at the time and were dating. I had strong feelings for him but was still getting to know him as a future mate.
    He cheated with his son's mother. They had called it quits for the third time about 6 months prior to me meeting him. I knew he had cheated on her a couple times early in their relationship when he was in his early twenties.
    When he cheated with her, it rocked my world more than I expected. We weren't telling each other we loved the other or moved in together yet. He betrayed me and I felt like a fool. He cheated with a woman he claimed to not be able to stand. She is a classic narcissist, and he left because he wasn't happy. She controlled him and was physically violent. She manipulated his child against him and to this day admits to that and sees nothing wrong with it. My thought was how did he betray me with this horrible woman. I was hurt and vulnerable. She was who told me and was more than happy to do so. She wanted him back. She claimed that even though she seen me over there and berated me and sent him texts that made it clear she knew we were an item, she said he said we were not together and she didn't know any different.
    After I found out, he admitted it. He said twice. She said 4-5 times. She told me all the locations. He said just the couch. To this day, I have no idea. After he admitted, I told him I needed time. I couldn't be with him because I needed to work through it myself. I suggested he do the same.
    For a month after, we still talked and he went through counseling. He desired to make us work, and I was willing to give it a shot. In counseling, he found that he cheated on her because he was unhappy. The therapist said their relationship was toxic. He said his cheating on me had nothing to do with me. He was happy with me and our relationship. He wasn't confident enough to say no with her and felt belittled. When he proposed, I thought I had worked through it. I thought I could trust him again and I was healed enough to move this relationship forward. We had come to an agreement with her since she will be in his life. I didnt' want to hear what she said about me. It worked until now.
    Originally, the OW would seek me out of social media and make me feel like dirt. She portrayed herself as a victim and me as the bad guy. She told everyone I was a homewrecker and other a whore. She constantly rubbed it in my face that he cheated with her. I blocked her from everything. Over time, I built my confidence up. I thought I was healing but in fact, I just pushed it all aside to not deal with my reality. She started calling and texting me recently. Saying all the same things. Saying she did nothing to me and that I was the one did something. Saying I was just like every other girl and he'd come back to her when I was no fun. It has been just shy of a year since it all happened but I feel like a scab has been picked. I've again blocked her but my confidence has dropped. I feel so stupid because I never seen the cheating coming. I feel stupid because I never thought I'd take a cheater back. I feel like I am less than, like I'm not special. I feel betrayed all over again. I feel sick everytime I see her. And I'm angry. Mostly angry at her. I do believe I've forgiven him but now I'm wondering again will he do this again. He has done everything to convince me otherwise and prove how special I am to him. Most of the time I still trust that but she has me shaken now.
    I need to heal but I have no idea how to do that. I will admit, I find myself constantly checking to see what she is saying about me knowing that it is nasty and only makes me feel worse. I can't stop. Can someone please give me some direction? I love this man and want to make this work. I want to marry him. But, when she started calling and texting me again a few weeks ago, I realized, it isn't fair to me or him to get married if I can't deal with this first.

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    1. I think your anger at his ex is misplaced because it's easier to be angry at her than at your fiance. Every time she contacts you, remember that HE is the one who opened up that avenue for her to continue taunting you by him cheating with her.

      I married my fiancé even though I found out that he cheated on me while we were engaged and we still haven't finished working through it- I'm not sure that we'll be able to. Getting married seemed to make my husband much less willing to put any work into this or to have patience when I'm upset at consequences of his cheating. For your fiancé, it seems extremely alarming that he has been off and on with her so much and that she will always be in his life because of their child. I, personally, don't think that I could deal with that. I would be worried about him cheating w her again or would be too antagonized by her. What is he doing to try to prevent her from taunting you?

      And, really, delaying marriage until you work through this is about what's good for you. Make decisions based on what is good for you (not based on him) because his decisions so far put himself first over you and to your detriment and the detriment of your relationship. You shouldn't both be putting him first.
      -lola

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    2. I have to ask, what is your fiancé doing about this? If he isn't defending you and isn't making an effort to make it stop, then I really think you should run. He may have kids with her, but he can take measures to make it stop without hurting his kids. The courts do not look kindly on this behavior. If he truly wants to be with and you are the one, you need to deal with this as a team. This is not your burden alone.

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    3. I also wouldn't be so quick to believe his portrayal of his ex while excusing him of much fault. You say that she's "horrible," a "narcissist," and that she "controlled" and "manipulated" him and he was unhappy in their "toxic" relationship and cheated w her despite being happy with you only because he lacks confidence and she belittled him, but he has been with her by choice over years, repeatedly, and keeps going back to her whether he's single or in a relationship (he could easily only see her for his kid or not see her at all if he actually thinks she's as toxic and awful as he tells you she is). I had one emotionally abusive and controlling ex- once I left him, I never ever went back and never ever would. To me, it seems that she either might not be as bad as he says, or she is and he likes it, and/or he's got more crazy/unhealthy stuff going on inside himself. Some guys tend to put down exes or ppl they cheated with instead of admitting (so our sex is great or sometimes we get along so so well, but then it goes bad and it's hard to not get back with her when it's going so well at first). I say this because it seems really hard to get to the bottom of this and see if you two can really move on if he's painted a misleading caricature of her, his feelings and attraction for her, or their relationship.
      -lola

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    4. You all make very good points. Thank you for your comments.
      @Julie: He has been making attempts to stop her behavior. Of course, it is the only thing we both know to do, and he has done it in the past. So far, it hasn't worked but the courts only gave her a slap on the wrist last time. He has filed another motion in court about this. His lawyer has contacted hers and her lawyer has told her to stop. He has contacted her directly, defending me, telling her to leave me alone and taking the blame for all this..as he should!
      @Lola: You are correct. My anger is misplaced in regards to the cheating. Trust, the issues with her arose before the cheating but it is the cheating that makes me the most angry. And when I get angry with her or hear from her, I wish her serious harm. And my anger towards him is refueled as well as my sense of betrayal and insecurities. It is not good for me, and I have no idea what to do. I have to get over her and get over letting her get to me. That is my biggest problem.

      As for his portrayal of her. The horrible and narcissist terms are mine based on my interactions with her both before and after they cheated. Also, I have family who have known her since before I knew either of them existed. They also have similar perceptions of her. As for him being controlled and manipulated, those are his terms and when we first started dating, I seen evidence of that. That said, you are right. He has made that choice to go back. The child is now a teen and they had not been together since the child was a toddler. He knew how he said she was and had a break for over 6 years but he still chose to go back. He said it was because he'd hoped they'd matured and changed enough to make it work for the child. Regardless, it gives me pause. You are right. I wonder about the nature of their relationship, and I have no clue as to how to figure it out. I know a few of her friends as well as family. They all agree they were toxic together through fault of BOTH of them. And it isn't like he didn't cheat on her too.

      I just don't know where to go from here. I'm trying to stop seeking her out on social media but I think for some reason I seek her validation/approval. The fact she is going to be a part of his life really does concern me. My anger with her concerns me. Their past concerns me. And yet, I felt ok about things before she started stuff again. UGH. This just feels never-ending.

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    5. Downtrodden,
      I do think you know where to go from here. Straight to a counsellor to help you work through this. SHE is toxic. No question. Her stalking of you on social media is obsessive and twisted. Block her any way you can. But do the work of figuring out what it is that draws YOU into her Web. The validation/approval thing. Why do you need someone as messed up as she is to approve of someone like YOU, who's living life with integrity and decency and kindness. You've become locked in the same sort of dysfunctional relationship that your boyfriend did with her. She's clearly got power...but YOU and HE have been the ones giving it to her.
      You need to cut her out of your life like a cancer. But, and therapy will help with this, you also need to figure out how you're going to deal with your fiance's child with her -- he will be in your life. And you won't be able to avoid this woman altogether so you need to learn how to create strong boundaries around yourself to ensure she doesn't affect you so profoundly.
      Get thee to a therapist....and sift through all this stuff. While I'm not a huge fan of marrying someone who cheated, if you honestly believe he's worked through what he did and taken full responsibility for it and is willing to approach your relationship with honesty and integrity, then you can at least see where it goes from here. But put the wedding on hold until you've sorted through all this other stuff.

      Delete
  21. Update from anonx4

    Having gone two weeks without contact from oW she sent a message last night to my husband to say that her own husband had found her archived messages, and that he may get a call or text from him.

    I don't have her contact details, I don't want them but now I am consumed with the thought of this man contacting my husband and what may happen.

    My husband didn't reply. He told me he had heard from her and read out the message. He has made it clear that he wants no further contact from her.

    But I think it is finally hitting home to him, exactly how many people have been hurt from the fallout.

    Also, I have a deeper fear, and that is that she gets dumped and becomes available. What ifs are killing me right now.

    Advice please ladies on how to deal with this would be appreciated.

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    1. Flossy here. I feel for you so much. This could potentially be me at any time. Also when I found out about my husband I wanted to tell the OW fiance, but what stopped me was the thought she'd then likely be more available to pursue/be pursued. It must feel like torture waiting to see if your husband gets contacted. Has anything happened?

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    2. Anonx4,
      Your husband is doing exactly what he should be doing. Taking in the information as it pertains to him...and ignoring her. She could be fishing. Even if she's not, your husband is taking the high road here. He can apologize to the husband if he contacts, making it clear it was a horrible mistake and that he's committed to making it up to his own family. What the other couple does is their business.
      Horrible to wait, I know. But stay focussed on you.

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    3. Thank you for these replies.

      I'm starting to feel that I would be better alone, as then I gain some control over my future (I have a horrible feeling that he won't change. He is struggling with giving up passwords and giving me access to his phone which suggests he isn't ready to be honest.)

      In truth I know I am only with him because we have four children and I don't want to put them through a divorce. Is this a terrible reason to stay together?

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    4. Anonymous,
      Frankly, it's the reason I stayed with my husband in the early days. I just didn't have the strength to break up the family and deal with three devastated kids. I honestly figured I'd wait it out, get myself back on my feet, and then leave. And yet...here I am. And happy to be here.
      That doesn't mean it's the right choice for you. It just means that, when there are kids, there's more to consider. I also didn't want to give up my kids for shared custody. So I took that into account.
      Ultimately YOU need to decide. I was lucky (ha!) enough to have a husband who willingly gave me passwords, answered every single question (over and over). So that was a big consideration too. If he hadn't? I wouldn't still be here.
      I'm not sure it's much help but this is really something you need to determine for yourself and your family based on what feels right for you. Try not to think too far down the road. What is your NEXT right step? Separation? Him on the couch? Give yourself time to figure it out...and see what HE is willing to do in the meantime. His actions don't dictate yours...but they might help you get clearer on what you can expect from him in the future.

      Delete
  22. I wrote 3 posts that are a longer version of my story at the bottom of http://betrayedwivesclub.blogspot.ca/p/share-your-story_20.html, but I think that page is full. I'm hoping to get some thoughts on this because I really don't know how to move fwd or how to figure out what I want. When we were engaged and about 9 months before our wedding, I found out that my fiancee had been on a sex meetup app (sex, not dating) and several sex meetup websites. There were dozens and dozens of women he was having convos with, exchanging pictures, talking about mtg up with, for months and months, and a few transgender women (who had been born male). A few months after I found out about the app & sites, he admitted that he'd been skyping sex acts & meeting up with the women in person to cheat on me for months and months, whenever he could. He said he'd stop (that he wasn't interested in them & wanted me) & he gave me access to his computer, phone, everything.
    I was in a whirlwind. I had no clue & didn't expect it at all. I told him that I didn't know what to think or how to process it. I still just didn't know what to think or if I could ever get over it. We went into counseling and he went to sex addicts anonymous for several months. We got married, I told him that I still wasn't sure if I could get over all that he'd done. After the wedding, he's had these rages/blowups over nothing (they've ranged from multiple times a week to once every 2 wks, and there was about 6 wks when there were no episodes). He's stayed very transparent (besides fb friending some women at work, but he also friended all the men) and assures me that he has no other desires and means every word in his vows & that he's so sorry & will never do anything like that again.
    I'm still stuck. Recently (it's been about a year since he admitted physically cheating), I just can't look at him or feel about him the same way (and he's noticed). I don't know if I'll get those feelings & attraction back or not. I don't know how to figure out if I can't get over his cheating & rage/blowups or how to be sure he'll stop. I'd planned on us spending our lives together &, while my career and friends are great, it's hard to picture life without him. I don't know what to do. I am so lost. Have I transitioned into seeing him as a friend only? Is there a way for that to change or should I figure out how to cut my losses and move on while there aren't any children involved? After a long time of not feeling much of anything, I'm crying & thinking about this nearly every day. If we aren't going to work out, we should go our separate ways sooner rather than later, but I don't know how to know for sure.

    - lola

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    1. Lola here w an update: any time that I'm upset or sad (even if I'm quietly working through it on my own just fine), he ends up getting angry at me or he has a break down much more than I do. The worst I get is usually crying quietly and trying to look up things to try to fix stuff, but he often starts yelling, pacing or having very agitated physical behavior, talking so wildly he keeps contradicting himself, and getting so worked up he's stammering, he can't breathe, he collapses & repeats things over & over like- you're abandoning me! I can't say anything!! While I sit there and try to calm him down. It's exhausting. I've told him that we can talk about his feelings and emotions, and that he should bring them up when he wants to, but that I will no longer cater to his outbursts and breakdowns in the moment when they're only a response to my sadness. Because that feels like punishing me for the consequences of him cheating and raging and it also results in his over the top emotions always taking priority over mine.

      He's also said that he refuses to admit that he has an anger problem because he says him messing up our relationship through cheating AND an anger/rage issue is more than he can bear. He's said that he'll keep "trying" to control his temper, but that he's only doing it for me, so I don't leave- not because he actually thinks he has an issue. I put trying in quotes because he won't look at any resources online to actually learn how to healthily process emotions so worry, guilt, sadness, frustration, etc don't all erupt as rage. instead of learning tools,his "trying" is just working hard to bottle it up and yelling that he's boxed in, hyperventilating that he can't express himself when I'm sitting there, calm, telling him I'm listening and of course he can talk. He also says that he's gonna have these same outbursts w our (future) children. I think it's a copout and that he should admit he has a problem and learn techniques to deal w it and move past it. I'm not okay with him treating me or our future children this way. My dad was controlling and he only had a few serious rages at me- but they were so terrifying that they changed my relationship w him and my mom permanently. I don't want my kids going through the same thing at all. Is there another site that has combo of these two issues or where ppl talk more about rage issues? Maybe I should let him know that we need to end our marriage if he won't admit that he has a temper issue?
      -lola

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    2. Iola, I'm so sorry that your marriage started under this cloud. I am of the opinion that to rebuild a marriage you need to know that the person you are rebuilding with has traits worth loving and fighting for. Unfortunately, he has apparently never shown any integrity, honor, or respect for you so how do you know he's capable of being better?

      This fight is taking every ounce of strength in me and my husband is doing everything possible to accept responsibility for his choice and his flaws. I can't imagine fighting this fight with someone who can't own what he did.

      It's a very difficult road to get the trust back and I'm concerned for you because he has been lying and cheating since before the marriage. Do you have any history with him that proves he deserves your commitment to fight for him? The ONLY reason I am still in it is because I had 26 years of proof that he is a good man. If this had happened in the early years I would have left, and certainly, would never have even entertained the idea of having children with him.

      Your husband sounds like he has major issues and it sounds as though you have lost respect for him. How do you endure this much pain for someone you no longer respect? Cut your losses and find a man who deserves you and who has the ability to admit his mistakes and the strength to be honest. Someday, when you have children you'll be glad you chose a stronger man.

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    3. To random thoughts: I don't know for sure that he's capable of being better. He keeps returning to saying that his blowups are a part of his personality, not behavior that he needs to or can unlearn. I also don't know if there are different things I can say our do that can push him to get better. I've been explaining it very clearly for months and sending him different links, I sent him a new batch of websites that could help explain it to him , we'll see what happens when he reads them.

      I don't have any history with him that proves he deserves my commitment to fight for him and I am not sure that I am committed to fight for him. Even the times that I thought were good, I found out later that he was lying or cheating . When we first started dating, I found out about a month or so into it that he actually had a girlfriend the whole time. He made it seem like this was okay because she had cheated on him before so he was only halfway in the relationship with her. But to get back to your question, no, there was no time in our relationship when it was actually true that he was just being honest, good to me, owning what he was doing, and treating me right, because even when I thought he was, I found out later that he wasn't.

      For now, what he says bothers him the most is that I don't seem happy and he's worried that I won't regain the emotional and physical attraction for him. I keep trying to tell him that his focus should be on treating me right instead of mistreating me, but he keeps wondering when I'm going to want to have sex again. ( For the past three or four weeks, I just haven't really been into it. How he's been treating me has kind of extinguished the fire and I don't know if it's coming back, but I know it won't come back if he keeps mistreating me and doesn't focus on admitting he has an anger issue and working through these problems.) This makes me think that he is most focused on himself and his desires, in a way that doesn't include my own or what's good for me, and maybe he's also focused on when he "gets to" cheat again. With all of his atrocious behavior and choices, if he can't stand through 1-2 months of distracted sex or subpar sex, or even no sex, then I'm not sure that he's built for marriage.

      This is also really distracting me from work that I need to do, while his work goes on completely unaffected. I am debating whether I should go and stay with friends and family for a month or a few months in order to be able to try to get space from this, get perspective in my own head, get work done, and maybe it would help give him a wake up call and the time he needs to really understand what's at stake here and the work he needs to do on himself regardless of whether he's in a relationship with me or not. Does anyone have any tips on discussing, thinking about, or carrying out a potential unofficial or official separation? It's hard even just thinking of how it works -do we talk about expectations of fidelity during that period? Should I be assuming that he's cheating during that period? I'm guessing that I would leave my things in our apartment until I know for sure that I'm moving out? I'm worried about his temper and about his cheating in terms of how he treats my things while I'm gone and whether he would have people over here for sex ("our" bed is actually my bed- his is in storage) or engage in risky behavior , like sex sites and meet ups, if I leave even temporarily.
      -lola

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    4. Lola,
      You are not safe right now, emotionally or physically. He has made this all about him when YOU are the injured party. As you can gather from this site, I'm completely on board when people want to rebuild their marriages. But from the sounds of it, your husband has mental health issues that go way beyond your ability to help him. He's refusing to seek help for himself, which leaves you in an unsafe situation.
      Please talk to a lawyer about a separation -- you need to get away. You need time to get your head clear and he needs to figure out whether he's willing to get the psychiatric help he needs. Rages are not okay. Freaking out at you when you're expressing hurt/pain is not okay. Frankly, there is NOTHING about your situation that is okay. Your loyalty is to you. Marriage is a partnership. It's about two people sharing life's ups and downs and holding each other through the tough times. Does any of that sound like your marriage. Factor in children and you've got a powder-keg.
      Please...be kind to yourself and provide yourself some space. It won't be easy. He's clearly got some good qualities or you wouldn't have chosen him. But don't let those (or fear of being single again) blind you to just how dysfunctional your marriage is.

      Delete
    5. Update from lola: I left for a week on a last minute trip. I'm also planning on leaving again. He has been supportive and understanding of me leaving and he hasn't raged or anything and chatters about work or random stuff like all is normal (which drives me nuts). He says he has some nice surprises planned for me to try to cheer me up.

      I have found clarity on a few things in my time away so far. He might have a number of dealbreakers that I've always been clear that I was not okay with in a marriage/relationship (lying, addiction, rage, and at least at one point cheating). His doing those things repeatedly during our relationship while making no serious efforts to change them and while I kept trying to think of how to fix things and not judge and be understanding and open might have killed any attraction to him or romantic feelings and I don't know if those feelings will come back or if I want them to. Those decisions/behaviors might not be who he really is or he might have already changed for the better or might change in the future, but I don't think that I can or should trust someone who's done what he has done to me. I am getting individual counseling and I might agree to continue couples counseling if he wants to (but I don't really want to).

      Every friend or relative who I've told is concerned for my safety if/when I tell him I'm leaving for good. I will have a smart, safe plan when I do leave. When I'm at home now, we just kind of exist. Part of me is hoping for another rage or cheating episode so I have a nice current clean reason to walk out right then. I'm also guessing that he'll be on good behavior to try to not give me an excuse.

      I feel bad for him because he'll be so hurt when I leave, but, as he's said himself a few times, if/when I leave, it'll just be a delayed result of him cheating and blowing up. I feel like he's left me no choice. And in my time away, I've been able to grieve the relationship and feel anger at him for making me believe in a him and a life that wasn't there and then making me have to leave. And a part of me has started wanting to move on - on my own and eventually in a loving relationship with a good person who treats me right.

      I see many people on here talking about giving it 2 years or more to figure out if they want to stay in the relationship. I'm guessing maybe life circumstances change that timeline a lot? Maybe many people giving 2 years or more to see if they even want to stay in the relationship either have a good while before they'd need to have kids, already have kids, or are past the age of all that? I don't have kids yet and want to be able to have some- I'm at an age where I have to move on unless I'm sure I want him to be the father of my kids. Just something I think about- also 2 years seems like so so long to be sad.

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  23. Hello all,

    Does anyone but me feel at loose ends after a therapy session? HIMSELF and I went to his therapist for our couples counseling session and after leaving I was really upset and confused. The therapist asked some really good questions and HIMSELF just did not answer. Oh, he talked but went around and around Robin Hood’s barn saying absolutely nothing. The therapist did pick up on this and asked him the same question several times. HIMSELF said the same thing each time therapist asked. The question?? I had written HIMSELF a letter and given a copy to my individual therapist and a copy to HIS therapist and a copy to HIMSELF. Therapist said he did indeed read my letter and asked HIMSELF how the letter made him feel -and- what did he think about some of the points I made in the letter. HIMSELF answered by going on and on and on about how I often write him letters and he always reads all of them and keeps them in a file. Therapist asked again - what comments HIMSELF had about the letter I sent therapist -- HIMSELF said same bullshit about he always reads letters and keeps them in a file. This went on for several minutes back and forth - therapist must have realized HIMSELF was not going to give him an answer so he switched topics. I was getting really upset during this entire exchange. When we got out of the session I felt as if I had just been in a dream looking at myself running in circles.

    I could be wrong but I think this gaslighting shit that some cheaters engage in is one of the causes which makes so many of us not be able to move forward. It also causes so many of us, me included, to feel STUCK for so long!! BTW everyone’s period of being stuck is different -- it can be days, weeks, months and yes, even years!

    Here is a link which talks about gaslighting. This link is from an “abuse” hotline. Infidelity, cheating and betrayal are all abuse.

    http://www.thehotline.org/2014/05/what-is-gaslighting/

    I’ve decided to stop going to couples counseling for a few weeks. I may change my mind after I talk to HIS therapist - who is our couple’s counselor. I doubt it. I have my own therapist.

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  24. Flossy here, first time posting. I found out almost 4 weeks ago about my husband's 3 month affair. (It was just sex for him apparently, so thats ok. Even though she told him she loved him). Anyway these stages im going through are really confusing me. At first I left and was so clear headed. I was getting my own place, drafting parenting plans etc ... I had this shit covered! Then the sads hit ... Big time. And I went to him for comfort and ended up saying id try again ... so started the hysterical bonding. Now that is passing and the relief of not losing him is wearing off and I'm really starting to panic. What if he does this again? What if they're still secretly in contact? Can my heart take all this doubting and worry? Maybe I should have been strong and just stayed separated? Not helped by the fact my family seriously disagree with my choice to take him back and aren't keeping that a secret. God I don't know what I'm even searching for ... Some relief from this pain I suppose. My husband has started acting like everything's normal and of course I'm still totally broken by what he's done and it hits me in these hideous waves all day.

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    1. Flossy, I'm only 7 months into this mess and I'm not sure I'm qualified to be giving advice but I feel for you and the pain and confusion you are experiencing. Even with a remorseful, model post-cheating husband I am, emotionally, all over the place. But, it's getting better. Take comfort in the fact that his affair seemed to be less emotional than physical. I think there may be an easier path back to us for those who cheat because they are searching for something in themselves vs. those who cheat because they have strong emotional attachments to the OW.

      Regarding your seeking comfort from your husband..... most of us have done it. Until dday they were our best friends, the person we trusted most in the world. It's natural to reach out to them for comfort, explanations, details, etc. And, if you are seeking to rebuild your marriage you obviously love him, so let him comfort you. Let him try to prove to you that he deserves you.

      The hysterical bonding slows down after a bit and, if your husband is really invested in the process, life starts becoming more bearable. I understand your fear about it happening again, but here is my most recent thought about that.....
      The worst, unthinkable thing has already occurred in your marriage. You not only survived it, but YOU are GIVING this man another chance. You know that you can survive without him, and you are aware that someday, if he repeats his behavior, you may have to. YOU have all the power right now. Satisfy your needs and your desire to see how this plays. If you want this man in your life move forward and see where it goes. You're no longer vulnerable to his choices and now you are hyper aware of what could happen. Stay aware and focused on your relationship. You can leave anytime you want if he isn't the man you are hoping he will be. Elle advised me in an earlier post that we can always change our minds if it doesn't work out. If the unthinkable happens again, he doesn't deserve you or respect you. Don't be afraid of the what ifs, if he cheats again, it's his failure, his loss and you can walk away.

      I don't think we'll ever know for sure if they are going to do it again.... maybe on our deathbeds we'll finally say, "wow, you kept your word." And, even then, I'll wonder....

      This man, all of these men, should be treating us like gold for the gift of a second chance. It comes at a horrific price for those of us who are giving it. Let's hope they don't waste it.

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    2. Hi Random thoughts
      In reading so many of the posts here I am amazed at how forgiving so many woman are with their husband's/ partner's unfaithfulness , maybe it's a man thing I don't know but when I found out about my wife's affair after 18 years of marriage I knew that I no longer loved her because of her unfaithfulness and I no longer trusted or believed her because of all the lies and secrets . Even though it was her that moved out of our bedroom because she believed I had destroyed her affair and the love she felt for her OM was not returned from him because he dumped her as soon as his wife found out about their affair I was just as happy as she was that our marriage was over and I feel I have been a lot happier than she has since we separated because I have not felt any guilt or anger towards her where as I'm sure the opposite is the case with my wife , so it really is her that has suffered from her affair and not me
      In the 12 years since my D day I have never given it a thought that maybe we could start again and try and rebuild our relationship , as I see it once all the promises are broken by unfaithfulness there is no way to rebuild , for all the time her affair lasted the foundation of our marriage was built on unfaithfulness , lies and secrets and that's a very unstable foundation for a marriage and mostly when anything has that instability in it's foundation it needs to be torn down
      Just my thoughs

      Alan

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    3. Flossy,
      It's an emotional roller coaster. So buckle up. The challenge is not to assume that every feeling is THE feeling. I should leave because it hurts, no, I should stay because he's trying. Wait, I should leave because my parents think I should...and on and on and on. It's why most experts suggest waiting six months to a year before making a decision. We're simply not emotionally capable of really knowing what's best (except, of course, in cases of abuse, addiction, etc.).
      Give yourself some time. See if your husband's request for a second chance is backed up by some heavy lifting on his part. Tell your parents that it's YOUR life and you will make the best choice for you and your children. They're scared for you, which makes sense. But it's simply not their choice to make.
      And then let yourself ride this roller coaster. It sucks. But it won't last forever. Talk to a therapist. Journal. Go for long walks. Figure out what you want the rest of your life to look like. Not what you wish your life already looked like...but what you can reasonably create for the future. YOU get to decide. Nobody else.

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    4. Alan, at times it is hard for me to believe that this has become my life. It was never my life's goal to be in this position and I certainly never thought I would be supportive of a cheating husband. But, here I am.

      I believe every story's fact pattern helps determine whether the marriage is fixable. In my case, my husband found himself in a dark place. Job stress combined with temporary male health issues, deepening depression and a wife who noticed the depression but was spread so thin taking care of elderly parents and college financing for our son created the perfect storm for disaster. For 26 years my husband was amazing and he has always been a wonderful father. He has always been the strength and stability in my life, and he is, still, the most honorable man I have ever known. Unfortunately, when he found himself in this dark place, I didn't do a damn thing to help him because I relied on his strength to pull him through. I was too busy with other priorities, I took for granted that he would be ok.

      So, over a three week period he met a complete stranger online, arranged a meeting and had sex with her. Her marriage was bad, she was lonely. She listened to him, she made time to be with him, she adored him, and she validated his feelings. She did what I failed to do. But, in a matter of days he snapped out of it. He tried to end it. But, she was looking for a way out of her marriage, she wasn't going to let go. He spent more time trying to get away from her than he actually spent with her. When she couldn't get him to come back she threatened and ultimately found me and told me. He spent approximately 6 hours with this woman---total. He had no feelings for her, he wasn't attached to her, he didn't love her. He was lonely and lost and he made a mistake. These details matter to me, they make a difference. We ALL fall down but I think it's important to see how we pick ourselves up. He took responsibility, he is remorseful, and, my pain is causing him pain. He is sincere. He is worth fighting for. He is my best friend and I can't leave him behind.

      You are correct, you definitely can't build on a faulty foundation. That's why those of us who are fighting to rebuild are willing to strip ourselves and our marriages down in order to see, understand and correct the failures. When two people are committed to doing this they will undoubtedly find that it took two people to get to this point. Let me tell you what I am finally able to admit about my role in this mess.....
      See part two....

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    5. Part two....

      ~~April 2014 my husband told me he wasn't happy, he didn't know why, just was very depressed. He hadn't seemed himself for months. He was struggling with new job responsibilities, ED, frustration about my responsibilities for family members. He said he was moving out, needed to be alone to understand what he was feeling. ~I was blown away but I said ok, go. I was hurt but tried to take the high road. I offered to divide up everything right then and there, set him free (thinking he would say wow, what an amazing woman, how can I leave her) Day three, the pain sets in, I attack him, I say "go, I'm not really attracted to you anyway, you stopped working out, your hair is long, your eyes look dead, I don't know who you are anymore." And, "I'd have been better if if you had died." Yes, I actually said that... didn't mean it, but I said it. A few days later we took our son to tour his college, we had a great day, he decided that night to stay. We never spoke of it again. I know it sounds ridiculous, we just swept it under the rug. We went on with life as if nothing happened, I just relied on his strength and assumed it had passed. It hadn't. He fell apart in August while I was taking care of my elderly parents. I found out in September. And, I own the part I played in this nightmare. And, that's how I can forgive him. And, I have found that now that I own it, I can forgive myself for taking him for granted, for not being there for him when he needed me most.

      Probably too much info but I wanted to tell the rest of our story to someone.

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    6. To Random thoughts

      Thank you for your reply and I envy you for being able to understand what caused your husband's indiscretion and for him to be honest about it .

      From all I have read about affairs it seems that women become much more emotionally involved with their other partner that men seem to , that certainly applied to my wife . The other thing that occurred in our separation is that she never voiced any regret , guilt etc for what she did nor was she ever willing to tell me the truth about her affair

      Even after 12 years all I know is that they worked together , she was late home from work 2 sometimes 3 nights a week for the best part of 6 months , I know his name and address where i saw her car parked outside his house , he was about 14 years younger than her and that she told me she was in love with him , I believe she became pregnant to him because I know she had an abortion early on in their affair and I know the pregnancy wasn't mine . When I presented her the evidence that I knew she was having an affair , she had 2 or 3 opportunities to tell me the truth but chose to lie about it and then when she eventually did admit to her affair she said " Yes I'm having an affair , I don't want to talk about it" . Then about a week later was when she accused me of telling his wife which I didn't do , when his wife found out she made him resign from their work place immediately and to never contact her again , that was when she to me that I had destroyed the only real love she had ever had and she would never forgive me for doing that

      There is so much written here about the other woman and a lot of it applies to my wife , because she was the other woman , I'm sure she fought hard to keep him but he chose to stay with his wife . Maybe as a lot of people say it was an exit affair for my wife but he wouldn't exit with her , I'm sure he just saw her as someone else to have sex with and felt little or no emotional involvement in their affair , whereas for her he was her prince in shining armour and he would ride off into the sunset with her , the other thing is as far as I know she has not had another relationship since her affair ended and that is why I'm inclined to think that she still is in love with him

      I am sorry for the 12 years we have wasted living in this loveless marriage , more so for her than me because if he had chosen to be with her she would have likely found the happiness she wanted . When our marriage ended I was more than happy focusing on our children and enjoying everything we did together and I still am . Even though 4 of them live out of home now I still have at least weekly contact and numerous phone calls with them whereas sadly my wife misses out on a lot of that . The other thing that saddens me somewhat is that when I do leave in a few years she will have no one and she will have chosen to live a lonely life

      Alan

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    7. RT, Thanks so much for sharing that behind-the-curtain view of your marriage. I too said things in my pain that I didn't mean. Hurt people hurt people. And I did.
      Alan, I do think your situation is different from many here in that your wife has done NOTHING to indicate that she views the affair as a mistake, nor has she done anything to acknowledge the pain she caused you. I count the seconds for you until you're free of her.

      Delete
    8. Alan, your wife has treated you horribly. It amazes me that you have endured living with her all these years, for your children. as Elle said, we will all be happy for you to be free of her. You are a good man.

      Delete
    9. Elle/Random thoughts

      Thank you both for your support , I have to say it is not as bad as it sounds , if I had left I would have missed out on so much with the children whereas now I can look back over the last 12 years and I have so many wonderful memories of all the things I have done with the children , watching them all grow to be wonderful young adults and the memories of all the special times we have shared together . I consider myself a very lucky man

      Thank you again for this site , it is the only time that I have shared so much of what happened apart from with a counselor many years ago at least now i'm talking with people who really understand what it is like to be cheated on and lied to

      Alan

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  25. Flossy,

    Look around for a therapist. Many insurance plans cover therapy/counseling. If you can each get an individual therapist that is great - if not - try to get a couples counselor and go together. Go get tested for STD's - this is very important. Sexually transmitted diseases can really really impact your health. Even if he swears he wore condom and had "safe sex" -- still GET TESTED!! There is NO safe sex -- only "safer sex". Most local health departments have free testing and if you ask most will test anonymously.

    He thinks since you "came back" and the hysterical bonding was fantastic for him - it is everything back to normal. In his mind you came back to him completely because of the fantastic sex.

    Ask him to tell you what exactly happened -- only IF you really want to know. Remember once you hear something you can not UN-hear it. Whether or not he loved her or told her he loved her is really not the point. The point is he betrayed you by bringing someone else into your relationship.

    Try to read as much of this site as you can to get some perspective from women who are and have been down this road. We are all here for each other.

    I'm so sorry you are here. I wish I was not here.

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  26. I commented her on February 9th. The post is below. Since then my husband has done better at proving he is remorseful. I am still struggling with forgiving him for not telling the whole truth in the beginning and forcing me to talk to the OW. He has written the OW explaining why he thinks he betrayed me and that he regrets all of his betrayals. The OW responded via text that she does not believe the letter. She says she knows when he is truthful and she is sorry that his wife does not. She still believes what they had was love and she does not believe he regrets it. I am having a hard time coping with this. Why does it matter a 50 yo woman believes a man she met on a sex site calling himself highway dryver loved her? Why do I care what a sick woman thinks? I am at a lost for how to get past this. I do not know what I would do without online blogs. There is no one I know that has been through adultery. I do not have anyone that really understands.

    (I am 2 years post discovery and I feel like I have regressed the last few days. I feel so broken. I have shared part of my story under a different section. I found out on New Years Day by an anonymous text telling me to look up my husband online user name he used on the swinger sites. He cheated on me for 6 years with women he arranged meeting by chatting online. He had one favorite though that lived close to us. He saw her frequently for 4 years during the day when he supposed to be working. He also took her on at least 8 out of town "work" trips. The 4 years he was seeing his favorite I was pregnant twice, once with twins and then single. I also lost my mom during this time. I feel betrayed on many levels. I was working while this woman he was seeing was not. She was a webcam girl. This is just highlights of my nightmare. I chose to stay with him because I love him and he is a good father. I think I would be further along in my healing if he would have told me the whole truth when it all came out. He told me about her, but pretending like he never took her out to eat. He claimed they eat pizza in the room all the time. Ha. It was not until I contacted her over a year out that I got more truth. She told me all the places he took her to eat which were many and some local to where I worked at the time. She told me they has pictures with their clothes on. He kept saying he did not remember taking pics with their clothes on that all the pics were sexual. I contacted her again about pics. She said she had deleted all the pics, but had found a letter he wrote her. She sent me pics of parts of the letter. 3 plus hand written pages about his love for her. He had told me that she did not have anything written from him so this letter was a shock. Yes I know I should have assumed, but I did not. He claims he was insane when he wrote that letter and did not remember it. I can forgive him for almost everything except not saying anything to her after she sent me the letter. I feel like she has this hand written letter about his love and that helps her cope with what she did. I want her to know that he regrets writing that letter and every second he spent with her and others. I feel like I am going insane and this pain will never end. Please help)

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    1. Joy,
      First off, let me assure that this pain WILL end. Not soon enough, admittedly. But it will end. So please know that.
      And yes, the trickle truth is excruciating. The steady drip drip drip of more information that we think we're going to drown.
      You don't have to stay. It's that simple. So know that you have that option.
      If you choose to stay...and he's willing to do the hard work of figuring out why he betrayed you and his children for such a long time, then it's going to take time. His recovery is HIS work. Your healing is YOUR work. Don't confuse the two.
      As for this OW? She needs to be relegated to the " IRRELEVANT" file. What she thinks or doesn't think about the relationship is irrelevant. She's done with. Left in the past. Sure she's hurt. That's what happens when you get involved with a married man. Not your problem. Not his problem. HER problem.
      You keep the focus on you.

      Delete
  27. When I was dealing with my husband's fatal attraction flight attendant, my therapist said to give her no contact in any form. No doubt he would say the same to you. She is seeking attention and negative attention is better than nothing in her head. Let this pathetic snake crawl off into the bushes and focus on what you need to do to heal. Erase those memories with therapy, or exercise, whatever stops the ruminating. Expect this will take a lot more time. It's almost 30 yrs ago for me and I can recall memories to make me cry or I can celebrate the fact that we raised 2 incredible children together. Wishing you peaceful thoughts.

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  28. I tried posting this to the Multiple Affairs section but have revised it here. I feel much better having written this. I will not send it.

    Dear OW,

    When I found out that you and my husband were having a sexual and pseudo-emotional affair for 6 months, my world was shattered. My understanding of my marriage, spouse, family, and life, were destroyed. I am working on the excruciating tasks of rebuilding my sense of self, my marriage, and my world. I am hoping that in the long term this will prove to be a blessing but I dare not thank you for that yet. The person most responsible for the destruction is of course my husband. I hold no illusion there, but I still need to write this letter to you to release the rage and poison I am holding against you:

    There you were, a woman regularly in my home, who cleaned my things, and dusted my wedding and family pictures, and scrubbed the crap from my toilets. And you were meeting with my husband regularly, right under my nose, and screwing him in local hotels. You spent time with him, shared with him, listened to him, while naked next to him. I hope you can recognize that you committed a grave offense against an innocent woman & family.

    I believe you have been mistreated by your own husband, who has cheated on you and betrayed you. So, in your own misery, you decided to engage in an affair with my husband, when he was actively searching for an escape from his own emptiness and resentments and long-buried pain. A part of you wanted to believe the lies - you told yourself you loved him and that he loved you. He has admitted to me that he considered you a ‘very good friend’ which makes me want to vomit. One does not entice a ‘very good friend’ into ongoing sexual meetups by pretending he loves her and wants to be with her. One does not help his ‘very good friend’ by cheating with her on her own husband and family (whatever her husband’s offenses).

    I am trying to let go of my anger here and clearly it isn’t easy. It hurts to know that my husband held you and caressed you and told you that you were beautiful etc. etc., while not doing the same for me for those months (and let’s be honest - for a couple of years before that thanks to his reliance upon prostitutes and porn - surprise!). At the time of the affair, he had mostly dismissed me as a friend and lover. He had already conjured me up to be some sort of combination of bad mother/shrew/roommate – I’m not sure exactly but I was something ugly to him.
    That must have made his cruelty towards me easier to justify, and helped him engage in his on-going unfaithfulness these last few years. And, in your own hurt and selfishness, you were more than willing to play along, without regard to the pain you were perpetuating.

    In my heart I feel that I have to forgive you and find compassion for you. I recognize that you are an injured woman, deceived & damaged by her own husband – and you chose the option of distraction & fantasy to make yourself feel better. You decided that the attention & sex my husband was offering equated to love, because it was largely missing from your own life. I read somewhere that I should imagine you, serene, bathed in warmth and compassion, and wish you your own healing and recovery. I can handle doing that for about 2 seconds. I will try again tomorrow. I will keep trying until I can sustain the image for a good long while, and then I believe I will be able to let you go. You too deserve love and wholeness. I can see that you too have been through enough.

    However shattering for my heart and spirit at the time, I am incredibly thankful that your husband came to my home to tell me about the affair. His intentions were not good at the time as he was there to punish my wayward husband, not to save me – but no matter.

    Good luck to you and your life. I hope, for you sake, and for the sake of your children, that you can find peace and happiness within yourself. -Mary

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    1. Mary,
      That was honestly one of the most open-hearted OW letters I've ever read. You're a saint, Mary. I hope your husband comes to deserve you.
      I'm sure your ability to look unflinchingly at your own life, yourself, your husband and the OW is going to serve you well. Keep us posted.

      Delete
    2. Hi Mary

      Thank you for writing that letter , it is the most sincere and heart felt letter on this topic I have ever read , there is quite a bit of your letter that certainly applies to my wife during her affair and just maybe if her other man's wife had written her a letter like that she would have some idea of the damage she did not only to our marriage but to his as well and as a result feel some guilt , regret etc
      All I can do is wish you every happiness in the future and God bless you

      Alan

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  29. Hi Elle,

    I havent read all of these blogs so I am not sure if this has ever happened, but I am a husband who although never physically cheated on my wife, but i did get into some websites where people would meet up for sex and had a couple conversations and even booked a hotel room before canceling it the next day when I was hit with a huge brick wall of guilt. My wife found this out(2 days ago) and is saying she is planning on leaving me. She already moved out and is living with her brother right now. I went to my first Sexaholics Anonymous last night and I am going tonight as well. Everyone she has talked to has pretty much said to leave me but I am finally ready to be open and true about myself and concur this addiction that I have. do you have an email i could reach out to to give you my personal information? again I am not sure if you have seen this on your site or if you would be interested in helping me but I dont know where else to turn

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    1. Unfortunately I don't give out my personal contact info because the floodgates would open and I fear I would drown in it. That said, our culture too often leaps to the "leave him" option because we don't really have a blueprint for how to navigate infidelity. You could certainly direct your wife here if she's even considering staying (or leaving, for that matter). She's been devastated. Her trust in you has been shattered. Her world has been revealed as unsafe and it's excruciating. I applaud you for recognizing your problem and taking steps to heal yourself. But you also need to recognize HER pain and just how this shakes her world. In the end, she gets to decide whether to give you a second chance. But whether she does or doesn't, your can nonetheless heal yourself so that shame and guilt no longer have such a hold on you.
      I sincerely wish you all the best. Feel free to post here and share your story. I'm sorry for the pain both you and your wife are in.
      As for where else you specifically can turn, check out Surviving Infidelity (survivinginfidelity.com). There's a forum for "Wayward Spouses" that often has great advice and some really wise guys.

      Delete
    2. To the husband who planned to cheat on his wife with a stranger you met on a sex site,
      I talk about my husband doing that (along with other unrelated things) earlier on this page. Only he actually did it (which you say you never did). Remember that her leaving you or not isn't a group decision. She might be talking to her friends and hearing their opinions, but this isn't majority rules- it's her life and her decision. So I'd recommend being less concerned with her friends' votes and more concerned with your issues and her. My friends might keep their opinions to themselves more, but only 3 friends/relatives (out of probably 15 or more who I've talked to) have pushed me to leave my husband (nearly everybody on these types of sites does too). At the end of the day, it's my decision and I have to live with it. I've never wanted to be in a relationship with someone with an addiction, so much of that dealbreaker is making the choice for me.

      I am not accusing you of lying at all, but if you are in any way underplaying what you did etc., I'd suggest stopping that immediately. A large part of the reason that I might leave my husband is because he never came clean about anything on his own- every single thing he admitted is because I outsmarted him and figured it out or I bluffed and cajoled and comforted him into admitting it. This makes me think that he will probably never come clean to me on his own and be honest about something embarrassing or tough. That is a huge problem for me. I need to be sure that I know what is happening in my own relationship and to decide if I can or want to work through it. Even if there are things that you've admitted to nobody- say them first here if that helps and then try to be more open about them in your life.

      Do you know what led you to go on those sites or why you would consider sex in a hotel with a stranger? Knowing these things about yourself is key. Especially because that situation is extremely dangerous - from stds, to robbery, to death (that guy got murdered in a Georgetown hotel trying to meet up w a stranger for sex from Craigslist).
      -lola

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  30. Thanks so much for this compassionate site. Like the lady above I have been as understanding and open minded as possible about the reasons for my husband's 10 month emotional affair, the pressures on him, and us (our son with Aspergers) his tendency to try to 'fix' rather than share and my own inadequacies/anxieites that made him feel unwanted. Our marriage was very shaky a little before and alongside the affair and we were discussing seperating. This was done, of course without my knowing of the extra pressure our marriage was under from the affair. We have four children, the OW had six and was just legally seperating from her husband who suffers from depression. My husband was the 'listening ear' and it went on from there to where he felt so alienated from me and the family that he did the usual character assasination of me (I've seen the texts). He told me about the relationship as a way of clearing his head (not knowing what he wanted and thinking we should seperate). I naively thought that 'these things happen' but did not at that point realise how much they had become connected. It was only after I accidentally found some very husband and wifey type texts and affectionate exchanges (sent when we were seriously discussing (I thought) our own relationship that I realised the extent of it. One one occasion she rang him up to meet and I asked him not to but he disappeared for four hours to 'discuss their future.' All the usual affair fog stuff. Reality struck when I saw the texts and I drew a line and said I did not want to be married to a man who lies and sent him links to seperation mediation services. He did the whole no contact, remorse thing and went to IC. However nine months later (Sept 14) she contacted him again and he went along with it. He was 'slowly extricating himself' after the rushed initial no contact. He told me nothing of this contact that lasted a month - until I found out. After witnessing all my heartbreak he lied all over again. To make things worse I saw a message in my Other facebook folder in Sept that had been sent when he first cut off contact - all about how he had made a commitment to her and her family, insinuating physcial contact (although he has said over and over that there was hugs and hand holding and no more). I first decided not to reply but eventually I sent a letter similar to the one the lady wrote above. The OW was receiving this in Sept. Of course she was able to shoot back that my husband had been in contact all month. At first he lied to my face once more but then admitted it and made a no contact phone call again. Throughout our relationship he has had difficulty with strong emotions (either from me or him) and bottles not shares, he wants to change this. HOwever our openmindedness and honesty (HA!) I had really valued as one of the best features of our relationship, I don't know how to get over this core violation. I always thought we could share with each other even if something like that happened. He had also become so hostile towards me before hand that it's hard to come back from that. Troubles with our eldest son have also ground me down and I'm not in a good state emotionally. I can understand and value him as a friend. How do you get past knowing that something you felt was particularly integral to your relationship is destroyed. When it mattered that he came to me, he didn't. A

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    1. A,
      You need support, first of all. If you don't already have a counsellor, please find one. You're emotionally exhausted and likely physically drained too. You can't keep juggling so many balls. So please start there.
      As for your husband going back on his word, had you put any sort of consequences in place? There can't be any lying, any contact, any deception. He cuts it off, end of story. He gives you access to any and all e-mail/phone/computer. If she contacts him, he tells you immediately. These are non-negotiables. Given that he already violated that, you need to decide where you go from here.
      I, personally, would insist that he also get counselling to figure out what the hell he's doing.
      While he's getting straight and you're getting support, you can slowly figure out just what the future holds. But right now, please get yourself some help. You deserve it.

      Delete
  31. Thanks so much for your response Elle. I've definitely felt adrift, invisible and exhausted - not a good place from which to make decisions. I've been reading a lot of Pema Chodron's books and the fantastic After His Affair by Mervyn G. Callander which combines some Buddhist philosophy with empowerment as a woman. I've also started writing (novel) again, something vital which was robbed by the shock and confusion surrounding the affair. My husband has been transparent w regard to computer, phone, mail etc, went to IC post D-Day and we've been to marriage counselling since Sept. I suppose I long for the clarity it's not yet possible to have, even with my husband doing what he can. He was a good man who went wrong but the fact he chose to character assassinate me and lie again is hard to reconcile with that. When people choose badly over and over, does it say something about them? We need more time to tell and it's difficult to be part of a relationship when ambiguity still exists. I'm still quite on the edge emotionally and difficulties with my son has added to that hugely but I'll continue to access the support of key friends and seek further support as you suggest. Thanks again for your support to all of us undergoing this traumatic experience and I wish healing and clarity for all here. A

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    1. A,
      Just keep doing what you're doing. Nourish your own soul. The clarity will come.
      As for your question re. what does it say about people who repeatedly make bad choices: I don't think it's as clear as saying someone is a bad person. We're all driven by so many things -- ego, avoidance, fear, shame. I think it ultimately is less about him as an individual and more about him as a partner. Is he capable of being the partner you want and need? And you might not know right now. So it's okay to wait until you feel clearer. Or at least until the ground beneath you feels a bit more stable.

      Delete
  32. My D day was 2 years ago. I found out after 17 years of marriage, that my husband had a 5 year relationship with a co-worker. According to him the physical affair had stopped 2 years prior to my finding out , but the emotional affair continued until the day I learned of the affair. He only told me of the affair because someone was going to "out" him.
    We have 2 children ( now 17 and 19 y.o. Boys)
    After 2 years, some days are great and others are painful. I have come a long way from D day through marriage and individual counseling. I am waiting for the day I can look back on this whole ordeal and look at it as a growing and learning experience, however I feel like that is a long way off at my current rate.
    Amongst other things, I struggle with trusting him ( and myself for that matter) . He did such a good job at hiding the affair. I was COMPLETELY blindsided. I trusted him so very much, I would have never thought he was capable of this type of action. Especially since he was on the receiving end of infidelity in a previous relationship ( not married) Not once did he display any type of behavior that would make me suspicious. Not once!!
    He says he is an open book. That I can access all of his personal information, email, FB, etc. I have not chosen to do this, as he is a computer forensic expert. I don't trust that he wouldn't alter, hide or delete any information. I want to trust him again, but he did such a great job of being deceitful, for such a long time, that I am having a difficult time with that.
    He continues to try to "make up" for his disgressions, and has been very patience with me. I struggle daily if I made the right decision staying with him. I love him, but don't want to make both of us miserable by staying.

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    1. Shalleen,
      Whether you stay or go, trust is going to be an issue with you. Once we discover that those we love can betray us in such a profound way, we realize that we may never know what's really going on. What we can learn, however, is that we can trust ourselves. And by that I mean we can trust ourselves to survive should be ever get blind-sided again. There's simply no guarantees in life. No guarantee that your husband won't cheat again, no guarantee that a new man wouldn't cheat. There never was any guarantee though most of us lived our lives as if there was.
      Some people build a sense of "safety" by building in clear consequences should he cheat again: for instance, would he sign a contract giving you the house if he gets caught cheating?
      You could also make a plan for yourself. If you were to find out that he was cheating again, what would you do? File immediately for divorce? Kick him out? A big part of the shock of the betrayal is that we never anticipated it...and have no blueprint for how to respond. Now that you've gone through it, what would you do the same? How would you have liked to respond differently? You can almost dress-rehearse it so that, God forbid, it happens again, you're somewhat prepared for it.
      Ultimately, of course, what you're asking is how to open your heart again after it has been broken. And the only real answer is to just do it. Life is hard. It blindsides us in all sorts of way -- terminal diagnoses, sudden death of friends or parents or children, accidents, job loss. Betrayal is another on that list. But life also offers up so many gifts. What you focus on -- the gifts or the disasters -- is your choice.
      Two years might seem like an eternity but it's not so long in the healing world. Give yourself some time, keep your heart open, and trust that, not matter what happens in life, you're strong enough to handle it.

      Delete
  33. Thank you Elle for your response. I have definatly lived my life as though there were guarantees about fidelity and trust from those who vow to do so. It's a profound disappointment to find out that the person who made such intimate promises to you,fails and betrays you. This shook my whole world, to the core. I have definitely not re-opened my heart and find it very difficult to do so. I am working on that.
    Thank you for your advice to form a safety plan and dress rehersal, should this happen again. I've often looked at what I should or shouldn't have done throught this process, being very critical on how I've handled it. Perhaps I need to accept it is what it is and plan for the future. thank you again for your words of compassion and wisdom.

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    1. Shalleen,
      Many many of us go back over our response and wish we could have a do-over. I think a big part of healing is letting ourselves off the hook. We did the best we could during the most painful part of our lives. That is something to be commended. We've survived.
      When we know better, we do better. So now you can trust in yourself to survive should this happen again and to respond differently.
      Either way, while it's good to have a plan, none of us should live as if we're waiting for the other shoe to drop. We now know what can happen...but need to focus on taking it one day at a time.

      Delete
  34. I am also just over 2 years from my world changing forever. Trust and lies are the hardest as I believed that truth and honesty was the foundation of our marriage.
    I know now that I will never have the truth and that he is a man that can not talk about his feelings or what went on. Should I be pleased that he is here? After all I have not given him an easy time for the past 2 years. Should I be happy with him saying sorry and that it was a mistake? He loves me. He all over me all the time. Is that love or guilt? At which point why is it only s mistake when it gets found out? Why did he need to meet with her after i found him with the second phone? Telling me he was texting sex lines. He said they met to say goodbye but 2 weeks after That I worked out through online billing that he was having a affair! He was still calling her.
    I go round in circles as I really want the truth but know that I could never get over the truth and then go back to I need the truth.
    He says they met twice in a hotel but nothing happened they didn't even touch the bed!! But something must of happened for them to go 6 weeks later to the second hotel . He said she wouldn't have sex with him in the first hotel as he didn't have a condom. He said she gave him a hand job but now says that's not true nothing happened. He said they didn't take their clothes off in the second hotel but he went into the bathroom to put the condom on and the said it was a mistake. He has once when really drunk said he's embarrassed that nothing happened! Male ego as her husband texts to say your husband couldn't 'crack' my wife!! Weird as she went to the second hotel to be ****** and happy to pay for the hotel herself
    I'm in hell. I try to be strong (as I was) but just want to cry most days. I should be working but I'm not. I have fallen out with friends that I guess where not really friends and find my self at the age of 55 everybody that has come into my life has hurt me! People that I confided in I know have told someone and my family think I should be getting over it. That's the only thing that keeps me here are my family and that I love him so deeply. So why can't I let it go??

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    1. Jane,
      You have been traumatized by an experience that traumatizes many of us. You are experiencing post-trauma symptoms. The going round and round of what you know, the needing to know more, the depression, the difficulty with other relationships. It all points to post-trauma.
      I can't recall if you're in counselling or not but please find someone who can help you process this as post-trauma. Here's a bit more info about it: http://trauma.blog.yorku.ca/2013/12/love-is-war-post-infidelity-stress-disorder-2/
      Jane, you can't let it go because it's not over for you yet. You don't feel safe. You don't feel as though you can trust him to share with you the whole story. At some point in healing, we generally stop needing all those details. But as long as you're feeling unsafe, those details feel like a lifeline. They feel like a popcorn trail that will take us to a place of understanding.
      The truth of your experience is that he betrayed you. Whether or not it was once, twice or dozens of times, whether or not it was intercourse or a hand job, he betrayed you. And that is devastating. Those who think you should be "over it"? They've likely never gone through it themselves. People want you "over it" because your pain is making them feel helpless and scared. It's about their feelings, not yours. You take as long as you need. Give yourself permission to take as long as necessary (most experts say 3 - 5 years, incidentally) and give yourself permission to still feel scared and unsure. Not everyone, as you're discovering, can handle a friend's crisis. Don't take their inability to handle your pain as your problem. It's hurtful, sure. But it's about their emotional immaturity, not yours.
      Jane, you'll get there. This is hell. At two years I was barely changing out of bathrobe. But recognizing that I was experiencing post-trauma symptoms helped me immensely. It helped me stop beating myself up for not being "over" this. You'll be able to let it go when you've processed it in a healthy way. And that takes time.

      Delete
  35. Thank you Elle
    I have just finished 3 sessions with a Counsellor in which she said I need to 'draw a line under it' and move forward and that I was obsessed.
    I have started to look for someone else!

    Other than coming on here I feel so alone. I went along to a tennis club yesterday which I know I'll enjoy again but worried as all I want to do is sleep. I never have any energy and seem to be cold all the time .
    I do understand that I need to put myself back into the world and it upsets me that my life is passing me by.

    Thank you to all of you that write on here you are my life line xx

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    1. Jane,
      I agree with your counsellor...just not yet. At some point, we all have to draw that line. But not until we feel ready.
      Someone just commented on another post about Addo Recovery, so I've been checking it out. It looks quite good. And there's a free recovery program for betrayal trauma. Why not take a look. It can't hurt. At the very least, it really validates the experience so many of us go through:
      http://members.addorecovery.com

      Delete
  36. I have a question. What is the feeling of finding out WHY it happened? Is it the norm for them to not be able to give you a reason and just say "I don't know" or " I wish I knew". What do you think it means for recovery to not be able to get that answer or to have the answer? This is one of the biggest questions that I am having trouble accepting the "I don't know" for. If I don't know the reason of why it happened, how am I ever going to feel any comfort that it won't happen again. Does not knowing mean not willing to tell or maybe it mean only that he thought he could get away with it so he went for it while it was being offered....but doesn't want to tell me that as it would mean the end of our marriage? What do you think?

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    1. Anne,

      There is a reason why. You may never, ever know it. Many of the whys are hidden deep inside the psyche of the man. Abandonment issues, attachment issues, family dysfunction, addiction issues, commitment phobias, some are simply sociopaths or narcissists. The reasons go on and on. There are usually triggers but even the men may not know what they are without intense long term therapy with a QUALIFIED and KNOWLEDGABLE therapist. No matter how many Ph.D’s, MS, BS or other crap a person has behind their name -- if they are not WELL VERSED in the relationship and toxic relationship field they can do much more harm than help. Sort of like an eye doctor doing heart surgery. They both went to medical school but they do not know anything about working the other field of study. They each know what an eye is and what a heart is -but- have no idea how to diagnose and treat in a crisis situation.

      You have no way to determine if it will happen again. You can only build yourself up and make yourself as strong as possible. Put the boundaries you need in place and insist he honor them.

      He says “I don’t know” and “I wish I knew”. He may be afraid to look deep inside himself to find out. He may not be able to find out. Many rape victims “detach”. They put the trauma so deep inside them that it is almost impossible to bring it out. Your H may have a “why” that is deep inside him and bringing it out may be traumatic for him. What made it acceptable for him to “sexually act out” rather than working out his issues -- only he knows.

      My H refused to go to therapy for almost 9 months. Just last week (DDay was 1 year ago) he claims he told his therapist he needed comfort and when he was with the long term affair partner he felt really calm and knew nothing was going to cause any drama once he closed that hotel door and knew he had hours of smooth sailing. He lived to go into his fantasy world several times a month. He detached from me completely when he was with his long term mistress. My therapist thinks he has attachment intimacy and relationship commitment phobias from life experiences in his teens. My therapist has not talked to him but has talked to his therapist.

      Hang in there. It takes time - lots of time and I’m not talking about weeks or months.

      Delete
  37. Hi All, I need some guidance and it somewhat has to do with your question, Anne. This Sunday will mark being 6 months into this hole. Tomorrow is my 4th session with my new therapist and H's 3rd session with his new therapist. As advised by the therapist, we are not doing couples counseling until we both do some individual counseling. I have been a wreck these past 6 months. I've let my office slide into a hole, I've filed an extension on my taxes (first time ever) because I couldn't get my head around doing them, I've isolated myself from friends, not knowing whom to talk to because I feel such shame. I'm just now, with the help of the therapist, feeling the light of some grounding under my feet. It's far from steady, but I can see possibilities. Anne, my therapist has told me that a healthy H sounds like this: "This is what I did (they take full responsibility), this is why I did it (there's an understanding of the fundamental reasons), this is what I'm doing to take care of/fix it, this is what I/we need to look for so this doesn't happen again". Although H is showing up to his therapy, at this point his why is because "I wanted to". I wanted to? Are you kidding me? Because I wanted to is not going to be enough for me to rebuild this relationship. He is showing up to therapy every week in hopes that he can provide me with more than that, but I'm wondering at what point do I throw in the towel here? I'm going on 6 months with nothing more than I wanted to I know this will not satisfy my requirement for rebuilding. I'm ready to file on LegalZoom. We don't have any assets, we don't own a home. We have a 4 year old daughter together that I know we'll co-parent lovingly. I'm just not sure how much more time to give this. I understand I will require a lot of time to heal my heart. I'm tiring of holding onto to hope that H will get to the bottom of his shit and I don't want to waste my life. And yes, in the grand scheme of crap in life, I'm tired of this incident robbing me of my vital source. Children get sick and die, loved ones die, people survive genocide, starvation, etc. Life is hard enough as is and this heartache over a man that went out and made some ridiculous choices, who threw down the dice and gambled his family away because "he wanted to" doesn't measure up to me in the face of human tragedy. Shit, I was betrayed. Damn, it feels terrible AND I'm tired of wasting my life energy thinking about it and dragging it around with me every where I go. I'm just about at the point of releasing H and I'm not sure when to know, when to pull the trigger. I'm not sure if there's any way of truly knowing, but I need something to sink my teeth into other that because I wanted to. As always, thank you for all your responses. This site has saved me.

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  38. Anne, I think they know exactly why they did it. I believe they are afraid to say because it will hurt us or make them sounds even more selfish and callous. At the time, they let themselves believe that what they were doing was ok. Now that they are fighting for their marriages their reasoning pertaining to why it was ok probably sounds pretty ridiculous. And, let's face it, every single one of them did it because they thought we would never find out. But they'll never admit it.

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  39. Hi, thanks for the responses. I am torn. He is going to IC to see if he can figure out why he was doing it. He tells me that he truly doesn't know. He even says that when he thinks back to it, she was faceless to him, he doesn't recall her face....probably anxiety or a lie, who knows. I am not sure if I can believe that he truly doesn't know and is working to try to figure it out or like RT and V have said, he knows and just doesn't want to tell me. There is still a few things that are not adding up with his story and I am not sure if he is still lying to me (its not like he hasn't made a career out of lying to me) and at the same time, I don't know if those things matter.....the why matters to me though. I have tried for over a year to get the reason and he always says he doesn't know, he was an idiot etc. He now realizes that he has serious anger issues along with General Anxiety Disorder and he seems to be genuinely searching for some answers now. He refused to go to IC before as he didn't want to bring up his painful past and now he looks forward to going to get some answers. A step forward definitely, I just don't know if I can believe that he is still searching for the why. He may be searching for a why that will placate me.....I am so hurt, frustrated, disgusted, angry and all the other words that never seem to be profound enough to explain how I really feel. I am having rage issues, I still want to punch him in the face every morning that I wake up. I know I can rebuild a life with him, and probably a happy life, I am just not sure that i am not going to be living a life where he is happy and I have a happy enough life....with constant thoughts of what he did that keep me in a state of sadness with happiness mixed in. Its still early. I go to IC again today so maybe she can help me out. We are working on how to deal with my past traumas and this trauma and to start to learn to eliminate or at least decrease my constant visions of him and her together....something that makes me want to vomit all day, everyday. Any additional words of wisdom are definitely appreciated. I read this site daily and the posts here have helped me even more than counselling has. There are some very wise survivors on this site that probably don't realize the extent of real, actual, meaningful help that they are providing all of us, especially me. I think I would have dropped into the abyss with no way out by now if it wasn't for this site and all of you. Thank you, thank you, thank you all. Love you all for the support you continue to provide.

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  40. Re. WHY?
    While I agree with your therapist, V, I don't think most cheating husbands start off with that level of insight. If they had that insight, I suspect they wouldn't have done it in the first place. They achieve that insight by going through what stories they were telling themselves, what feelings precipitated the choice they made. I think, Anne, your husband is being quite honest when he says he doesn't know. And, V, I think your husband is being quite honest when he says that he "wanted to." Let's be honest here: sex feels good. And sex with a new, willing partner feels really good. Most guys also completely downplay the cost of cheating. Nobody gets hurt, blah blah blah. BUT...most people won't betray an intimate partner UNLESS THEY'VE CONVINCED THEMSELVES THEY SOMEHOW DESERVE IT. That's where the mental gymnastics come in and where it's so important to parse out what stories they were telling themselves. My wife's a nag. She doesn't like sex as much as I do. We've grown apart. They're clichés because that's exactly what so many men have convinced themselves of. They don't go far enough to ask themselves, if she's lost interest in sex, what role have I played in that? And how do I handle how rejected I feel by that. If work is unfulfilling, what can I do that doesn't involve blowing up my marriage. If I'm feeling my mortality, what can I do to feel more alive that doesn't involve betraying my wife.
    Many men (and women) aren't even really aware that they're ripe for an affair until someone comes along and makes them feel interesting and sexy and alive. Novelty is exciting. But they have to be clueless enough to not recognize that it's not necessarily the person they're attracted to...it's how that person makes them feel. They fall in love, often, with the reflection they see of themselves in the other person's eyes.
    And then the wife finds out, all hell breaks lose and they're wondering what the hell they were thinking.
    For cheaters, coming out of that fog and realizing it wasn't the person they sought (they have someone they love and who they can't believe they've destroyed so profoundly), it was the FEELINGS they were after. Or the feelings they were trying to avoid (anxiety, loneliness, fear, rejection...).
    But it takes someone who's really willing to look deeply into themselves and examine just what they were telling themselves. And then to ask themselves, was the story they were telling themselves true.
    But that, of course, takes time, maturity, vulnerability and a willingness to do that hard work of really digging. So often, it goes back to our family of origin and the myriad ways in which they mess up our perception of ourselves in the world.
    Whether or not you stay with someone willing to do this work is a choice. But it's work they (and we!) should do anyway to heal from this and in order to go on and have a healthy relationship with each other or with a new partner.

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  41. Anne

    WHY has been easy for my Husband as I pushed to start a business that went wrong and was making us sell our house and lost a lot of money. He had hate for me but loved me at the same time - dangerous.
    He has said from day 1 that he was 'not thinking straight.'
    Was he looking and had made up his mind to find someone and is it that easy just to find a person that was happy to also be a cheater? She is married with chIldren.
    'It just happened'is something else he says
    As the weeks go into months I am gradually coming to terms that he will never tell the truth a. Because he might loose me, but b. Because he can't. He has not read blogs or spoken to friends. He simply can put his actions/what he felt into words
    For him it's the biggest mistake of his life and says he will have to live with it for the rest of his life. He also says he can not remember her face and that it could have been anybody. It was just an escape, a cowards way out of our mess. I will never know if that's true or he meet someone and they both fancied each other
    I guess what Iam saying is, it's not so important. It's happened and is becoming more like a bad dream. We are like teenagers again, we have found each other again. Only through his perseverance and never giving up on me.
    Doesn't mean I don't have moments or days. Today is a good day. I am able to take the advice of you lovely ladies. I have started to live again. I've booked a tennis lesson which should be fun as I've not played for 10 years!
    Thank you all for this site, I would never have worked it out on my own xx

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    1. Jane,
      That's so great. Once you get to a point where you begin to live again, it gathers momentum. Doesn't mean you won't still have some bad moments...but it means that you know that's all they are. Moments. And that you have what you need to get through them.
      Yay!!

      Delete
  42. Elle,
    Wow, you seem to know exactly the right thing to say all the time. I just came back from my therapist and while my venting and babbling on was all over the map, we managed to figure some things out. Condition of trying to make our marriage work is definitely that he has to work on his "issues" and determine what was going on with him to lead him to this mess. I told her that I need to some form of reason as to why it started 10 years ago in the first place, why they decided to remain friends when my husband told her no sex, why it started again and during all the times that he says he felt enormous guilt, why he wasn't able to stop until caught. He says he was trying to cut things off with her and even stopped meeting her for about 4 months before being caught however, the phone calls don't suggest this, if anything they suggest that he was getting more involved...his anxiety, maybe. It time for him to do the heavy work on himself while I figure out how to start to heal myself and not worry as much about him. I feel a little vindicated- I asked my therapist why I need so much info, including very specific info about the sex and she said that based on what she knows about me and the info that I require to put the facts together to make sense as well as needing to have specific info to throw out the visions and info that swirl around in my head that are incorrect...that asking these questions makes sense and its something I require to start to put it to rest.....the facts need to add up in my mind before I can move past them. Makes me feel better that I am not just crazy and/or pain shopping. This is definitely the most painful and difficult thing I have ever gone through (and I have gone through some serious s**t in my earlier years. Hopefully, I come out the other side a stronger better person and not a broken, destroyed shadow of my previous self.

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    1. Anne,
      I would venture that most (almost all) betrayed wives are desperate to know the details of what happened. I remember reading in some book that it's like a door was shut to us during the affair. We need that door open so we can go in, look around and assess for ourselves what, exactly, it all means. It's also a way of taking back our power. So yes, I think it can be important. The challenge, of course, is that once we know the details, to not keep sifting through them searching or begging for yet another piece of information that really doesn't change anything just adds to our pain.
      And I also think you've hit on another crucial point in all this. Your focus right now needs to be on your healing. Not on his. That's for him to manage. It can become so tempting to micro-manage our wayward spouses -- in part because we're terrified they're going to do it again. But it's not healthy for us nor for them. We each need to heal ourselves in order to come together and hope for a healthier relationship.

      Delete
  43. Jane,
    Thank you for your reply. Its very interesting, my husband also says that she was faceless. He has no recollection of what she looks like now....truth or lie, who knows. When I spoke with my and our therapist, she mentioned that he lives his life in fear and that part of him not telling me sufficient info is because he can't-he is afraid and has no control over it apparently. Is this the truth or is he just really good at fooling her also, something else I don't know. Part of what I am struggling with is that I don't know if I ever knew the real him. He told me yesterday that he believes he was afraid to reveal the other part of him that was anger. He would get real angry and yell at other people but I can't recall even one time where he raised his voice to me, I saw frustration, sarcasm, arrogance but never anger. When we are together and I am having a good day, things are fantastic, better than they ever were. Then bad days come and I get depressed, angry etc. The husband of the OW has threatened his life twice now and after hearing his first threat on the phone, I told him he is lashing out out of anger because he had sex with his wife...duh. His anger at the message was so intense that he just yelled "good" which seriously offended me because it was more important to him in that minute that he return hurt to the OW husband than it was to make sure he didn't upset me. Saying "good" really hurt me as it told me at that minute he was glad he did it because it hurt the OW husband. When he saw how upset I was, he immediately said, I didn't mean it, i was just angry but what does that say about the man I am married to? I don't know. The therapist has told him that he has serious anger issues stemming from childhood trauma and his work as a police officer. It is likely that he has PTSD from both that he has much work to do. Why did I have to bring up PTSD to the therapists and him for it to be looked into? I was told by a previous therapist that I have PTSD from this trauma, I agree with that. I am working on that. I have told him that I am giving myself at least a two year period before I even consider if I am able to live with this mess he created. So he has two years minimum to do what he can to show me he is worthy of this second chance I am trying to give him. I like the idea of the post nuptial fidelity agreement. I think I will be looking into it and proper, legal wording. He has mentioned that we should renew our vows but I don't know that I am ready for that at this point. More healing will be required before I can tell him "till death do us part". I have another question, has anyone ever struggled with the desire to get revenge by doing just what he did? I have never had any interest in anyone else and I know its something that I would never actually do as I have more respect for myself than that but I do struggle with the desire or possibly its just the fantasy of it so that he can feel what I feel. Something I know that he could never really fathom even if I did as he has already betrayed me and feels that he would deserve it if I were to do it to him.

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    1. Anne,
      I think many of us (me included) have thought of having a revenge affair. Ultimately I knew that it wouldn't really change anything except to negatively affect my own self-respect. "An eye for an eye..." has never really been my life philosophy.
      I think PTSD is far more common (especially among front-line responders) than most realize. It's starting to get some attention in that world, and it's also getting some attention in the "betrayal" world. When a friend (who worked with survivors of childhood sex abuse) suggested to me that's what I was experiencing, it was like a weight was lifted. It made sense to me, finally. And treating it that way moved me so much further ahead.
      As for your husband's response re. the OW, my husband felt deep shame when he finally had to face just how faceless these women were to him. And I respected him for finally acknowledging that these were human beings that he had used like they were sex dolls.
      Sounds like your husband has a lot of work to do re. his anger, feeling his emotions without acting on them. But that's his work.
      You focus on you.

      Delete
  44. Anne, I think when they lie, they lie to themselves. They can't believe they've been such fools. By lying they're convincing themselves it didn't happen
    I know what you mean about not knowing they were able to do such a thing bit think they hate themselves for it and it's why they don't want to talk about it. No body wants to be reminded of things they've done wrong all the time.
    Same here, I've not dated or kissed another man since 1980!! That's hard for me. I'm jealous it must feel lovely to have someone that fancies you again. That's another reason why. But for me it will always be HOW
    Good Bless
    Jane

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  45. Thank you all for your responses. This site has been like a life line for me. It's the worst club you never wanted to belong to. Elle, your message of keeping the focus on our own healing is exactly what I'm endeavoring to do. I'm truly amazed at how much I've lost myself. I'm truly amazed at how much I don't know how to take care of myself. There are things that have always been a part of my lifestyle that are self caring - I eat well, I'm physically active, blah, blah. That's always been true and it is a self caring. However, there are other things in life that I have let go, things that I was passionate about, things that brought me pure joy. Going through collage, I was a musician and worked on the weekends. Music was and is part of my DNA. I have not touched my instrument in years. My therapist told me I needed to get back to and find my passions and this was one of them. Sitting down and playing was like coming home. I can't believe I ever let it go. My therapist is explaining to me that it's normal to have these dual feelings of love one second and vengeance in the next. He's given me reason whereas my dog has never given me cause to be anything but loving towards him. Anne, I think you're correct when you say you're not sure if you knew the real him. What I'm finding in this process is that I lost the real me. I think I know parts of H, as I know the totality of our 17 years together wasn't all bullshit; however, the part of him that made it okay to discard his wife and daughter, I don't know that H and apparently, he doesn't either. I guess that's what therapy is for. There's certainly more to that story than "I did it because I wanted to". Yes, Elle, it's totally honest and all I want it honesty. It's been 6 months and I know in the world of 3-5 years I'm in my infancy. I asked the therapist when one knows when to throw in the towel. He told me it's too soon to tell. Right now all I need to focus on is getting myself secure, recapturing my joy, stay centered and grounded in the present moment. Once I have a firm foundation on who I am, I'll be able to know if I want to stay or leave. It's strange to say this/feel this, but I'm 44 years old and I feel as if I should be further along in my development than I am. I really feel as my therapist is starting with a 4 year old, not a 44 year old. I mean, this seems all so pedestrian - how-do-you-feel? what-brings-you-joy? I almost can't believe how co-dependent I am and it's so scary. I don't know who I am or where I fit if I'm H's wife. I just can't believe I've turned into that person. Or, maybe I've always been that person and H just provided the platform. What I do know is that what's happened in the relationship has made me feel unsafe, not secure, and not cherished. I want to tell you how grateful I am for all your responses. I'm on here daily and I hold onto your wisdom which has been a soothing balm for my broken heart.

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    1. V,
      I think our culture (for our generation, at least) makes it quite hard to hang on to that sense of caring for ourselves. We've been expected to be everything for everyone. Executive, mother, chef, porn star, Martha Stewart, supermodel, etc. The list goes on. Something's gotta give...and it's usually us.
      Which is why, in mid-life, such a crisis can also provide the springboard for us to find ourselves again.

      Delete
  46. V
    When you live as a partnership, do everything together ( so you think ) only to find out that your 'other half' has gone and had a good time on their own, it's humiliating and distroys your very being. It effects every part of your life. We will never get over it. Just somehow have to learn to live with, if we can! I just hope my husband never thought for one minute rhat he would be given a second chance and I'd forgive him. That makes me feel such an idiot!

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  47. I have been with my husband on and off for 7 years and married for 3 years. I found out this Christmas that he had an affair with this snoopy looking stub of a woman and I stayed. I feel angry, resentful, and as though I may never truly forgive him. I have a chronic health condition and was on the verge of going into the hospital and he was making plans to meet up with her. I keep wandering what would happen if I ran into her while with him...I don't think that would go very well. We have a teen that is soon going off to college and I just may leave if I make it through the summer. Our lease is about to be up and I'm seriously considering moving on and cutting my losses.
    Does the hurt get any easier to deal with? I'm in my mid 30s and have a long life ahead ...I don't want to be miserable through it. Any advice?

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    1. Anonymous,
      My only advice is to decide what's best for you. Not what you think you should do but what is healthiest for you.
      You say you've been with your husband on and off...it sounds as if the relationship has always been a bit unstable. I think when cheating takes place in a relationship that has had many issues, it can be the proverbial straw. It's hard to rebuild a marriage when there isn't really much of a foundation to begin with.
      So, while it is absolutely possible to rebuild a wonderful marriage, it's certainly not easy and takes commitment from both partners. Without that strong commitment from both partners to learn from what went wrong and figure out how to create an honest and respectful relationship, then it's pretty much doomed to fail. There is no right way through this...there is only what's right for you.

      Delete
  48. OMG! Yes! That's it - mother in the morning, career woman by day, Martha Stewart by evening and porn star by night. I like all of those facets, but I only like them on my terms. Jane, I think the humiliation is one of the biggest factors for me and a big part of why I haven't shared this with anyone. In therapy, I've discovered that I feel humiliated and shame because I've taken on some emotional responsibility for what's happened, as if I had anything to do with his choices. I'm also humiliated because I'm still here, in this relationship. I'm not sure what that says about me. What kind of a woman stays with a man that does these things? I don't think my husband even thought about my forgiveness because he just assumed I'd never find out, so that line of reasoning never entered his consciousness. Today marks 6 months.

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  49. Elle, hi again. I posted my letter to the OW last night. I had done this after I came home from a dinner that included a few drinks. Not sure how this works, but I regret posting my letter last night. There are too many details that could expose and hurt me, my husband and yes the OW. Can I ask you to not post this or my post from last night that started with "Part one: Thank you Elle and everyone who's contributed to this site,..." Thank you, A

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    1. Hi A,
      It's been deleted. I didn't even read it so your secret is safe. Hope it helped to get it down in words, though.

      Delete
  50. Hi its Polly here
    I read all your posts and I am amazed at how hurt we all are yet try to forgive non the less. It is so difficult because nearly two years on from finding out about my husbands affair and inability to leave his lover plus showing me intimate pornographic photos of him inside her and her humiliating me by phoning me on his phone whilst he was asleep in bed after a sex romp I was so traumatized I tried to die twice, nearly succeeded the second time.
    I ask myself daily why I forgave him? why i still love him after the all the lies and hurt he threw my way.
    You told me that the pain would ease and one day I would be truly be a fully functioning person again. It was difficult to believe.
    You are all so wise because it is true. though I think about all the lies and torment less now, it never goes away, it is always there gently simmering away inside of me..
    I have had therapy (good and bad) I am very sceptical because you may remember both my H and OW are practicing therapists. So I continually ask myself if such deceitful liars could EVER help us through this terrible ordeal.
    I accept not all therapists are like OW and H but you got to admit they are just human beings so have failings too.
    I try my best to stay positive now and see the good side of life because H refuses to stop having woman as his best mates !!!
    He says I just got to trust him as he will never leave me ! Is that a promise that he will never repeat his horrid behaviour? I do doubt he believes he will do it again but who knows. How can you ever trust a known liar again. Is it possible?
    To stay sane I try to put it all behind me yet it is NOT possible. I must just learn to live with it all or leave which I simply cannot do as I still love him.
    Once again he has ED which devastates me as he had that problem before OW with me yet I saw photographs of his massive erection inside her ! now it has returned when he is with me . I am very hurt and confused by this as I am slim and reasonably good looking so why is he unable to make love to me when he so obviously could with her?
    I keep quiet as I know it worries him yet how can I not be in pain and uncertain about my ability to be loved?
    I have accepted defeat in a way and try to get on day by day being as happy and positive as I can be. I doubt life will ever be the same again for any of us. We were betrayed and that is a fact. But we are not dead so we must try to stop hurting ourselves as we do.
    Still, I wake in the night and cry for hours , I just do not want him to know anymore that he has the power to break me.
    Fight all of you, fight to be happy. Every single one of you deserve to heal. We got the worst shock our beloved could give, We cannot, must not let it define us.
    Love to you all Polly

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    1. Polly,
      What you've gone through is outright abuse. He has abused his position. And showing you such photographs seems incredibly abusive.
      Why are you keeping silent when his ED, in the wake of his affair, is so painful for you? I'm convinced that the only way a relationship can truly heal from infidelity is for both parties to be able to express themselves fully in a respectful and safe environment. You silencing your own pain is not only disrespectful to yourself, it's hurting your relationship.
      His ED has NOTHING to do with your appeal sexually. Just as his affair was NOT about your sexual appeal. His cheating is about HIS problems, not yours.
      I can imagine how hard it is for you to trust a therapist but please know, your husband and his OW are absolutely NOT the norm. Most therapists are incredibly reputable, ethical and hold themselves to high standards. Not all are effective, true. And you're right that, of course, they're human. But that's not about their ethics. There are many many smart and honest and decent therapists who can help you. Please find a therapist who can help you through this.
      You don't need to "accept defeat". You don't need to (nor should you) silence yourself. It's possible to love your husband and nonetheless recognize that the relationship is unhealthy and needs a lot of help.
      If you're waking in the night and crying for hours, that's your cue that you need support and healing. And you need it from someone outside the relationship who can help you see more clearly.
      Polly, you don't deserve to live like this. You deserve to feel safe and cherished. Find someone, please, whom you can trust to help you through this.

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  51. You need to talk to him about his ED and your feelings. It is probably just the elephant in the room. No secrets right? I found that I talk about whatever is bothering me, right or wrong. It is going to surface eventually. Don't be afraid to speak up. Don't lose your voice. He sounds a little manipulative and he has been trained in this stuff. Start the conversation about your marriage NOW and what is happening NOW in your marriage. What is happening NOW may have nothing to do with the affair. Find out before it drives you nuts.

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  52. Polly, I feel every dripping word of your pain and I empathize and I love you for it. A while back I posted a quote from Ram Dass that was on a card H gave me after this happened: "Healing does not mean going back to way things were before". I have it hanging in my bathroom and I look at it everyday because it's relevant and true. I know personally I have a tendency to make all of H's horrible choices about me - if I was this way or that way, this never would have happened. I then regain/reclaim my sense of self and remember that this had nothing to do with me and everything to do with him. Your husband's ED is not your fault, but I'm figuring you may have been told this a thousand times. Maybe sometimes it takes a thousand times to hear the truth before we fully assimilate it. I branched out of the shadows and told a couple friends about what's been happening for the last 6 months. One girlfriend's first response was, "and you stayed?" Ouch. It just reminded me that people think they know how they would respond to a certain situation until they're in it. She hasn't called or reached out to me since I've told her. I guess when you say it all out loud, the details are pretty shocking, so a part of me understands. My other girlfriend and I had a big belly laugh over it. We came to the conclusion that H has such a sordid history of doing things wrong that he can't even get doing the wrong things right. Only my H could go out and meet a Russian online, get her pregnant and then drain a retirement account in order to meet her demands of terminating the pregnancy. Today Polly, I will fight for you. I will hold you close and yes, I will fight to be happy. Please, today let's all do one thing that reminds us of our joy and claim back our power. Love to you all.

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  53. Things I didn't know:
    You can have an affair meeting at 10am! You don't have to get dressed up and go out for dinner and drinks. Cheaters are happy to meet in shitty places so they don't get caught
    You can still lie and don't have to tell the truth on what happened to keep your wife! Just say your sorry and that you love her and you will never do it again then answer the questions how you want after all, only 2 people know the truth.
    If I hear the words 'draw a line under it' anymore I think I'll scream
    2years, 1 month and 7 days still sad but at least I don't feel sick to my stomach any more oh and have kept the 2 stone off so always a plus to something bad haha xx

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  54. Thank you for your support V I sometimes need a cuddle like a child would.. Some days every word said to me has relevance to what happened and can spoil my positivity. I just had a visit from my elderly uncle who sat over coffee telling me about his 7o year old friend having an affair and his wife being so upset that she keeps coming to him for advice.
    All the while he was talking my mind was going into a panicky over drive ! He carried on (Not knowing about my problems) and said that his friend left his OW then went back a few weeks later. My heart was breaking for this unknown to me poor woman . I felt her pain then POW!! I let the thought back in about OW and cried hoping that my H does not go back to HER.
    Why do we let this happen? why do we continually hurt ourselves? How can a positive happy moment be destroyed by an old mans gossip? I do not even know this woman yet she could be reading this as the most comfort I can get is from you lot. You feel like family supportive caring family.
    So much has the ability to upset me once again yet I try not to show it now.
    My h was struggling with ED for a few years before OW which was actually a massive blow. How could he with her and not with me? I felt so upset and unloved back then as I do once again.
    He told me certain things about sex with OW told me that maybe it was the excitement but mostly he could "rise to the occasion" but during his 2 year love affair he says he only managed to come three times!!
    I asked how that could be possible saying that she would have known, He looked sad as he said that he had no idea if she knew that he could feel himself going soft so went through the motions of finishing (faking) I listened with disbelief then saw his eyes, Oh yes it was true, He explained that it was not about the sex really just about being a bad boy after a lifetime of hard work and being good!!!!
    Do you think any one of us will ever understand a man?
    We have talked about his ED and he sadly told me that he was having problems as before told me it was NOT anything to do with me that I am beautiful !!
    I feel sad for us all and maybe the compassionate side of me feels sorry for our men. They are stupid and make terrible choices , my H was cruel beyond words so why do I feel his pain.
    somehow I feel woman are truly a different species to men. We must hang in there enjoy those fleeting happy moments and ride out the misery. Life is to live and we are not to be defined by a man and his bad behaviour.
    I know that woman are bad too ,that they hurt their men so we must just stick together a "band of brothers in arms" Keep on breathing, keep on being kind to yourself keep right on laughing when it is possible. love and peace to us all x x x Polly

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  55. When I read these posts, it brings tears to my eyes. I can relate on some level to each and everyone of these situations. I am sorry for your pain.
    I continuously ask myself how can I stay with a man that betrayed me as my husband did (a 5 year affair) . When I talk to my counselor I ask her, "what does that say about me? I have no self respect. " . How can I be upset with him, when I am treating myself as badly as he treated me? Of course the counselor disputes my feelings, and says that all though I am feeling that, that it's not an accurate statement and has me list all of the good qualities about myself...blah blah blah!! (Sorry so negative )
    Sometimes I feel like I have stayed because I'm too afraid to be out in the world on my own, so I'm settling for less than I deserve. People who know about the situation can't believe how strong I am for staying. I am too ashamed to admit that I'm not strong, I'm just too afraid to do anything else. This is my second marriage and I have failed yet again.
    Logically I know I am a good person who is doing the best that I can, however, sometimes, my emotional self wins over my logical self.
    As I mentioned in my first post I am 2 years out from D day. Some days are good and "normal" and others, I feel like I just found out. Today is a not so good day. Thanks for listening.

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    1. Shalleen,
      I think a lot of us struggle with that sense of "what does it say about me that I'll tolerate betrayal?" Which essentially comes down to a concern of what others would think. Others are not living our lives. And if you do come to a point where you feel strong enough to leave...and want to...then there's absolutely no reason why you can't.
      What I'm reading in your post is a lot of self-bashing. That you've "failed", that you have no self-respect. THAT is where your healing needs to begin. Once you're able to respect yourself and stop taking responsibility for others' failures (YOU didn't cheat), you'll begin to feel stronger. And in that strength, you'll find choice. To stay or leave. But it will be your choice, not dictated by what you think you should want to do.

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    2. Thank you Elle for your reply. I have and continue to self-bashing. The whole situation is so surreal to me. I feel like I must have done something to cause this. I'm not good enough, not pretty enough, too old and on and on. When I first found out about the affair, my husband blamed me for a lot of it. He has since retracted all of those statements and taken responsibility. Unfortunately those statements of blame have stuck with me and creep into my mind a lot. My self esteem was shattered when this happened and sunk lower with each blaming statement he made. I do understand that he was projecting his wrong doings onto me. It's just very hard to erase what I heard. I do hope for a day I can think of the affair less and regain my self esteem. I'm just not sure how to do that yet. I will get there though. Prior to finding this site I often felt so behind the recovery curve. Now I don't feel so abnormal for not being able to " move forward" after 2 years. Thank you all for that.

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    3. Shalleen,
      As my therapist has reminded me many times, those comments wouldn't stick unless, on some level, you believed them. Even though he's "retracted", you believe what he said. It's like, if somebody told you your hair was pink, you would think they were crazy. But if somebody told you that you were pretty enough, or thin enough, or smart enough, or funny enough...well how many of we women would nod our heads and agree? We receive a steady diet of those things and many of us have chosen to believe them.
      But they're lies. And the upside of this excruciating experience is that we get to re-examine all these things and make our own decisions about what we're going to believe and what we're going to throw away. What helped me was realizing that the world's most gorgeous women have been cheated on. The world's most brilliant women have been cheated on. Cultural perfection has not inoculated women from damaged men who've made horrible choices. So...what's the variable? Men who choose to cheat instead of remaining loyal.
      Shalleen, you are enough. You have always been enough. His choice to cheat is HIS choice. His choice to blame you for his own moral failings is HIS choice. But it's YOUR choice whether or not you accept that version of events...or whether you call it what it is: bullshit.

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  56. Hi Shalleen

    I can really understand where you are coming from , I have been through what you are talking about especially in my early years but even now it still occurs very occasionally , 12 years down the track . Even now on odd occasions I am still reminded of all the lies my wife told me during her affair , have I used our children as an excuse for not leaving when I should have years ago and left her to wallow in her own sorrow when she was dumped by her affair partner
    So many people who know about her affair and our circumstances have told me how strong I am for staying to support the children at home , maybe I could have done just a good a job living on my own , maybe an even better job with the support of loving partner . We can't change the past , we can only learn from it and hopefully make better discussions in the future
    I have no doubt your counselor is right , to walk away is a very easy thing to do and in some cases it is the right thing to do but to stay and fight for what ever it is that keeps you there talks enormous strength and can I say really try and tell yourself what a wonderful woman you are as are all the women here who have shared their story and helped us all so much , just knowing I am not alone in what I have felt and gone through has helped me a great deal .

    Alan

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    1. Thank you Alan for your reply. I'm sorry for the pain you have endured and thank you for your insight. I almost feel like I don't have the grounds to leave now after 2 years. I often feel like I have lost my window of opportunity. I know this really isn't true but that's how I feel. i also know that I hold the key to my own healing. I don't want to feel sad and confused, I just haven't figured out how to change that. I suspect time will be the best remedy. Best wishes to you.

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    2. Alan and Shalleen,
      We always have the choice to live tomorrow differently than today, based on what's right for us. We don't need anyone's permission to make choices that are the best for us. Please don't forget that.

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    3. Alan,
      Your thoughts and insight are so helpful to me. My mom stayed with my dad after his affair and turned into a bitter woman. You don't sound bitter yet you seem like you regretted leaving? After staying, and no one can see the future, do you wish you would have left? Were you happy when you stayed with her? What made the difference to you minus your kids who you obviously love very much.

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    4. Hi Lynn

      Firstly no I'm not bitter , my dad told me many many years ago " When something really upsets you , you can get bitter or better and I chose to get better . Yes for a few years I was really angry , to think I had really loved her , trusted her , gave her everything she wanted over the first 18 years of our marriage and I thought we had a really great marriage but now when I look back how much of that was a lie as well I don't know Do I wish that I had left ? , well I'm not sure that I can answer that because it was a choice I made at the time on what I thought would be the best outcomes for me and our children and I really try no to dwell on " What If's " . Have I really missed the love and companionship of a woman that I could trust and love most definitely .

      Was I happy when I stayed with her ? , most definitely yes , because I made it my goal to share and enjoy every day I have spent with the children to the best of my ability and firstly , I know not all of the children would have left with me had I left so I would have divided the children , Secondly , I knew she would never leave after her affair ended because as she saw it she would be loosing so much particularly , financially , I also know that she stayed to blame me for her affair ending when truth be known he was just using her for a bit on the side , " Sorry " . In all honesty would you believe that 30 year old guy would want to take on a 44 year old woman with 5 children not likely , Thirdly , to be honest , it was financial for me as well because I would have had to divide up everything at best for me 40/60 and I was not going to give her anything more that I had to . Last but the most Important , the divorce laws here favor the mother so much no matter what she does , she would only have had to file an abuse accusation against me and I would not be allowed to have any contact with any of my children under 18 years which at the time meant all of them and I din't trust her especially after what she had done and all the lied she had told

      I'm not sure if that answers your questions and if you would like any more clarity don't hesitate to ask and I'll try and provide it to you

      Alan

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    5. Shalleen, as someone who is 16 mos out from him admitting to physical cheating and maybe 21 months out from finding out that he was on sex sites and apps, I will be leaving him within the next few months. And I am so excited about the possibilities- it feels like a burden is being lifted off of my shoulders and like the clouds are clearing.

      It is never too late if you are unhappy. His cheating can have effects months and years down the road, your "grounds" for leaving don't have a time limit. My H knows I'm probably leaving him soon due to my unhappiness from him cheating and he fully understands that. He is also trying to talk me into giving him another year of trying (which would mean me leaving him nearly 3 years after)- which I probably can't do.

      The window of opportunity is only closed by your daily decision to stay.

      I was feeling so much worst starting at about 14 mos post physical cheating d-day and more passing time wasn't the best for my healing and clarity- getting away with some gfs to a pretty place was amazing. I realized that I wasn't just depressed and sad- it was him and his cheating and I am growing sure that me ending things w him will be my best remedy- not time.

      You will know what's best for you at some point- have you gotten some space and just had some fun or relaxed away from him?
      -lola

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    6. Lola,
      Thank-you for sharing your story. I think too many of us feel that there's a time limit during which we have to decide to stay or go. We always have a choice. Sometimes it's when the dust has proverbially settled that we can see it's time to leave. Sometimes it takes a year or two or three to have the emotional strength to leave a situation that is keeping us down.
      Glad to know that you're feeling a burden lift. That speaks volumes.

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    7. Lola, thank you for your reply. You asked if I had gotten some space and just had some fun or relaxed away from him. I have had a lot of time away from my H, my job takes me away about a third of the year. Also he left me right after the affair was found out. I have not had any significant alone, for just fun since this all occurred.
      Part of the reason I feel like I have lost my window of opportunity to leave, is that when my H left, I was in such shock. I thought, how could he leave ME after HE was the one to have the affair? Further sunk the self esteem. He made the decision, at my urging, to try and reconcile. I felt so relieved that he came home, I guess initially we were in the "honeymoon" phase of trying to make things work. Now and for sometime the honeymoon phase is over, the dust has settled and the reality of the situation has once again, shocked and shaken my world. Not every day, but a lot of days.
      I feel a sense of obligation to make things work, after he came home on my urging. As I write this it sounds a bit pathetic, I know I don't owe him anything, after all he was the one who chose to cheat. It's difficult to put my feelings into writing exactly why I feel a sense of obligation. (beyond the fear of being alone and starting all over again)
      I am leaning towards waiting until my children finish school before I make a move to leave. Maybe by then I will find myself in a different place emotionally.
      Shalleen

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    8. Shalleen,
      You get to decide what you do with your life. Nobody else. You, of course, also live with the consequences -- whether good or bad.
      Just make sure that you ARE making a choice. And yes, choosing to wait is a choice. I just don't want you to be ruled by fear. I want you to be making the choice from a place of strength and conviction. A "THIS is what I want today" type of conviction.
      Your loyalty needs to be to you and what's best for you (which, for many of us, includes what's best for our kids).

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    9. You don't sound pathetic to me in any way. On some days (like today), I feel a huge sense of obligation to him. And for no good reason. I guess I care about his feelings more than he cared about mine. And I feel bad for hurting his feelings if I leave even though it is a consequence of his behavior. Or I feel locked in and stuck because we're already married (while someone else feels stuck because of kids or because they are the one who asked for R). He starts thinking that we're getting on a path to R, despite what I say to the contrary, and then I feel bad for bursting his bubble with reality. This is really hard. I guess I/we just have to do whatever it is that we think we actually want or what would benefit us the most, even if it isn't what he wants. Easier said than done. I hope we can be strong enough to do whatever is best for us.
      -lola

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  57. part one...my story... it feels like yesterday when i found the email about the hotel reservation, yet it was 2 years ago. how can the pain and the sadness still feel the same? my husband says it's because i don't WANT to get over it but does he really think i like to feel like yesterday's leftovers? does he think that i really like to know that my husband chose some 20something year old over 12 years together? yeah, i like feeling like second choice, it was always my dream as a little girl to marry someone that i thought the world of only to find out he didn't think much of me at all, yep, ya got me! i guess i should explain...my story, of course, is similar to each of yours, otherwise i wouldn't be here, right? we had our problems, normal problems...the house, the kids, money, etc... sometimes we fought about those things more than others but i knew, or i THOUGHT i knew, that we'd get through it...part of the "for worse" part in the vows we took, right? at some point, we fought pretty hard and he wasn't his usual self about it, he was kinda more of a big shot, for lack of a better way to say it. it was like he was provoking me and eventually i saw why, but at the time, i didn't know. somewhere during that fight, he told me to find someone that can make me happy... i always thought he COULD make me happy if he'd do a little more around the house, remember to call if he was going to be late...ya know, little marital stuff that we all argue about. and i'm sure i could've made him happier if i didn't nag about stuff and if i'd have sex more often, again, normal marital issues where we both people are justified in wanting their needs met, nothing out of the ordinary as far as i was concerned. in my wildest dreams, i didn't see it coming and it was that very trust i gave to him that allowed him to do what he did. i don't think he really hated our marriage as much as he says, i think that the DW (dirty whore) he worked with just got his attention and he had no choice but to make me out to be the bad guy so that he could pursue whatever it was they thought they had together. anyway, when he said to find someone else to make me happy i realized we were no longer fighting FOR our marriage, he was giving me an OUT, hoping i'd take it. again, i didn't know what was going on and i was so hurt that he said that, i retaliated and said that i would and i'd have the divorce papers drawn up tomorrow! of course, i wasn't doing that, i had no plans to divorce, i thought we were just fighting about stuff. he later told me that he wasn't even sure if he still loved me. i was devastated. things spiraled out of control. two weeks later i found a receipt on his email for a hotel on the beach for a night that he was supposed to be with friends at a golf outing. it all set in. he was having an affair. his behavior started to make sense...well, not really, none of it really makes sense to me, but i realized why he was being such an asshole to me. he was trying to make me want to leave so he can do his thing. what a coward, you can't even be man enough to tell me, you have to play these silly games? i wasted no time in confronting him, he denied he was there with anyone, said he just went to clear his head because we were fighting so much...blahblahblah... i didn't believe him, what a ridiculous story! i had no other proof so i didn't do anything at first, just kept digging. found phone calls through the cell phone bill, found receipts for days he was supposed to be at meetings but was somewhere else, i even found a receipt for a COUPLE'S MASSAGE... my world was changed in so many ways, on so many levels. everything i thought we had was a joke, 12 years of my life was tossed to the side for what? a pretty, young girl? yes, 22 years younger than me, how on earth could i compete with that? in finding these things out, i started to see an atty about divorce because he just kept denying it all. crazy, right??? i mean, hello??..

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  58. part2...i have all these receipts! when i found out the girls' number and called it, i knew who it was and i went to their job and approached her...he was her boss, btw... i told her that if i find out that she's screwing my husband, i'd kill her. i was actually really nice about it which shows that i've grown quite a bit since my 20's. when my husband heard that i went there, he told me never to come back there, he protected her and screamed at me and told me i was crazy and out of control. in fact, i wasn't out of control at that point, but it was coming. over the next few months he hardly came home at night, we argued alot, he denied stuff, i cried, i packed everything up, put a deposit on a house and was literally on my way to sign the divorce papers and he stopped me in the hallway. he begged me not to leave, that he would do anything...blahblahblah. i never really wanted to divorce him but i knew i couldn't live the way we were living and he wasn't admitting to anything which made it all worse. we talked a bit, he told me some things, pretty much admitted to everything i already knew except he said he never slept with her...of course, i don't believe that nonsense but i figured that was just really hard for him to admit and at that point, it didn't matter. i gave him an ultimatum, he had to get rid of her... he didn't. he kept coming up with excuses as to why he couldn't let her go. i grew tired of asking, i realized that i just didn't really mean that much to him, i wasn't getting to a better place, time was going by but it was all the same. not sure why i didn't leave, i kept thinking we came this far, maybe we just need more time. but more time just turned into more time. she finally quit or her fired her, as has been the case throughout this mess, i'm not really sure, he tells one story, she tells another. that was 4 months after i found out. i cried every time he went to work, knowing she'd be there. he swore she meant nothing, yet he couldn't fire her. most of your stories are about finding out and your husband ending the affair immediately...mine was a slow bleed...the signs were there, we fought because i knew something was up, he knew i was on to him but it never crossed his mind to stop. he left me home crying, begging him not to leave, swearing that i know he's going to be with someone else and him just telling me how insane i was acting. i lost 20lbs in 3 months, my house was a mess, bills piled up, my kids could see something was wrong, i tried to hide it but i wear my heart on my sleeve...still, he just watched me fall apart and continued seeing her. who does that? fast forward to the now... he seems to be trying to "make it up to me", but my heart still aches because i just don't believe in him, i don't believe in us. the way i see it is that if you have an affair, AND I AM NOT JUSTIFYING IT IN ANY WAY, but if you're doing it because you feel the need to escape your real life and if you think you're not hurting anyone because your spouse doesn't know and you have a crappy marriage anyway, that's one thing, BUT, if your spouse is pleading with you because she knows something is going on but just doesn't have the proof yet and you see the hurt and you walk away from her while she lies crying on the floor... how do you not stop? how do you go out with that DW (and yes, she is a dirty whore because this was not the first time she's done this...she also did it with her soccer coach when she was a senior in hs...he lost everything... his wife, his family, his career and time because he went to jail for statutory rape!! yes, this is the girl that my husband tossed me aside for...wtf???) i must have been a really lousy wife for that to be a step up for him. i guess the fact that she's half my age without wrinkles and gray hair and she's skinnier and i suppose, truth be told, she's prettier...

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  59. part3...i mean, i'm a old and 20lbs heavier than before i had my boys, my gray hair grows in faster than ever now and i always looked like i've been up all night, i suppose i can't blame him for being attracted to someone else. so, as i was saying, he has been doing the right thing, for the most part. over the past two years we have had our share of arguments and i've tried not to let the triggers that come up (she lives a mile from us, i see her, i see her family, not to mention driving by all the places these two idiots went in my own back yard!) i try not to let them get the best of me and when they do, i try not to break his balls about it too much because i don't wanna fight with him but at least once every 4-6 weeks we go at it pretty good and i just spew all the hurt and anger. i hate that this is my new life. i hate that i don't trust him. i hate that i didn't leave sooner because now i feel trapped. i don't want a divorce but i don't know how to be married to someone that could so easily treat me that way. i know i'm all over the place, i know i'm probably not making sense, i often just wish i could disappear. everything we built for all those years meant nothing to him, i meant nothing to him until she was gone. funny how he suddenly wanted me when she left the company, when he saw that they weren't gonna rekindle their affair, i suddenly mattered. our life suddenly mattered. sure, being second choice, sloppy seconds, yesterday's leftovers, winning my husband back by default...it is what every little girls dreams of when they get married... isn't it??? i've said enough, there are so many details that have brought me to write this and for a moment, i'm not sure if they matter, the bottom line is that i'm stuck in this place and i'm not the same person i used to be, which really sucks because i liked who i was, unfortunately, my husband didn't and that's a shitty truth to live with and still try to be loving and kind and rebuild and all that stuff that you now have to do if you want to save your marriage... how great would it be if these cheating assholes tried being kinder and more loving and worked on their marriage BEFORE they destroyed it. my husband says that i can sometimes be dramatic, and i guess he's right but that's only because i feel dramatic...it's like getting caught in the middle of a yawn...you can't breathe until you let it go. i wish i could let it go so i could breathe.

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    1. Anonymous,
      Your story is pretty routine...including the husband who won't cop to the whole truth and him refusing to cut her out of his life.
      He's done some insane damage to your marriage. You are not over this because he has done nothing to help you heal. But what I want to know is what are YOU doing to help you heal? Your letter is full of self-blame and self-recrimination. You didn't cause this. You're absolutely taking some responsibility for your part in a falling-apart marriage...but you did NOT cause him to cheat. That's on him to take full responsibility for. What's more, he refused to end it, continued to lie to you and now is blaming you for not being "over it". WTF?
      I'm also concerned about the level of anger in the house because your kids are going to be affected by that stress. So...given that he doesn't sound like he's going to help you through this, you are going to need to get yourself through this.
      Step number one is to find a counsellor who has dealt with infidelity and who can help you understand that this is NOT because you have grey hair and need to lose a few pounds. He cheated because it was easier than working on the marriage. Because it distracted him. Because his moral compass is broken.
      You, however, are left with the pain and the mistrust and the anger. A good counsellor will help you process all that, help you learn healthier ways of expressing that, and help you figure out whether you're going to try and rebuild a marriage from all this or whether you're better off moving forward without him. Without his full commitment to honesty and hard work, your marriage is on shaky ground. It's hard enough to build a good marriage, it's impossible if one of the partners after betrayal isn't fully committed to how difficult it will be.
      Sweetheart, you'll be able to "let it go" once you've felt that your pain has been acknowledged and once he's taken responsibility for what he's done. You'll be able to "let it go" once you've healed from this incredibly traumatizing experience. You need healing, not blame. You need support, not dismissal. You need a partner, not an adversary.
      Start by being those things for yourself...and then figure out whether or not he's got what it takes to be your true friend through this.

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    2. Unfortunately, I cannot afford counseling... we went for a little while but it was just too expensive to keep up with. I am in a downward spiral. I guess I'm just not as lucky as some of you who have "found themselves" throughout all of this. All I've found is that I cannot forgive him. I truly have no idea how to be okay with him gambling with our lives like that, our children's lives. What kind of person does that? Recently, we argued about his stupid car. He loves his car but I hate it because he used to take her in it, it makes me sick to my stomach. I told him I want him to get rid of it and although it is for sale now, he kicked and screamed about it...about how much he loves it and how he doesn't understand why it matters, what else is he gonna drive...ME ME ME!! I told him that I don't give a shit if he rides a skateboard to work, I don't want to look at that stupid car in the garage every day! It made me realize, once again, how little I meant to him that he is having such a hard time getting rid of a stupid car but he had no problem watching me pack up our house, knowing he was gonna lose me and our family. It makes me incredibly sad to know that his car ranks higher on the list that I did. He says it's not the same thing...I agree...it should be easier to lose a car than your wife. In the past few weeks there have been so many triggers, like, all in a row... the sadness was so intense one day that I literally had to talk myself out of driving head on into oncoming traffic...I'm in such a dark place, I feel like I'm going backwards.

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    3. There's a free phone counselling network for women like you that can, perhaps, help you. I still think you need a good counsellor because wanting to drive into oncoming traffic speaks to the incredible pain you feel...and your need to feel heard in your pain.
      You feel invisible in your marriage, or worse. You feel like you simply don't matter. I suspect you've felt like this for a long time, perhaps long before you were ma.ried.
      You DO matter. But you need to find a way to believe that. The Infidelity Counselling Network free phone line is at http://www.infidelitycounselingnetwork.org
      Please talk to someone. You don't need to stay in this "dark place". We've been there. It's hell.

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  60. I love to read all your posts and yes Alan, this site has made me feel so much less alone. This morning I'm once again struggling with the stay or leave debate that's ceaseless in my head. I am only 6 months out from my mess. We have a 4 year old daughter at home. It's not the worst time in the world to split the family up. I think a bit of an older child might be tougher on the child. Then, for selfish reasons, I want H around to help me with the childcare, especially now when I've never been so depleted. I'm needing some guidance today because I'm not sure I trust myself and I think there's a crazy lady living in my head. H has made a couple comments of late that although are refreshingly honest, they also speak volumes regarding where he is in terms of insight as to why he has made these choices. "I effed her because I wanted to" and "let's hope I can keep it straight". He'll also tell me he's going to do everything he can to make this work, he's going to do everything he can, he's going to do everything he can, he loves me and so forth. I believe he believes that. He's going to therapy, but last Thursday, when I was begging him for something to give me to hold onto to help me stay, he didn't go to his therapy due to a work emergency. What about your marital emergency? There's always an excuse. Last Thursday, I told him not to come home and he's now spent two nights out of the house which seems like an eternity for me. The crazy lady in my head wants to call him 100 times. I think she gets revved up because she's clinging onto hope when there might be none. Yes, he could say all the right things, but then not show up to therapy. I'm telling him I won't last one more week without any insight and then he doesn't show up to therapy. I think I'm clinging on to hope and the hope is making me nuts. I hope he's going to come home with some real insights. I hope he's going to throw himself into this process full throttle. I hope saving this marriage is as important to him as it is to me. Perhaps what I need to be hoping for is that I can save myself. My therapist suggested I get some legal counsel, should it go that way. He's really, really saying prepare for the worst. My head just doesn't work this way. Legal counsel? It seems so drastic. We really don't have any assets, so walking away, although hard, would not be as hard as many others that have a lot at stake financially. I then think about our little girl. How will this affect her and how is it affecting her now, seeing mommy a bit messed up a lot??

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  61. V,
    I feel your pain. You were there along with many others during my worse days and I would like to be there for you also. I am sending you massive hugs.
    I believe that your husband going through personal therapy to get to the why's and the whats are important and should be a deal breaker. At first my husband was very open to therapy for his anxiety disorder along with couples therapy but was adamant that he did not want therapy for his previous traumas (which I believe are very much involved in the whys and the whats of what he did and who he has become today). After our 2nd DDay (not another affair but the truth-or at least hopefully the truth) we both seem to have hit rock bottom and are both technically still there, he came to me and said he wanted to talk to someone to find out why he is the way he is, what has happened to him to get to the point we are at now. This to me was probably the main reason I have any hope at all for our future. When your husband said he effed her because he wanted to, it sounds similar to my husband saying- when I asked him what she was to him- he said she was just his whore.....more digging on my part and it turns out there were some obvious real or fantasy feelings for her there. Possibly your husband is afraid to admit he had feelings for her or is ashamed and its way of trying to lessen the hurt-even though it does the exact opposite. When he says lets hope i can keep it straight, is he referring to his story? If thats the case then he is still lying and a marriage that is full of lies still is no marriage in my opinion-something I am trying to get my husband to see and I think he may finally see that (fingers crossed and time will tell). If he is referring to hoping he can keep himself straight and on the straight and narrow of being faithful- in my opinion, if he isn't sure he can then its a definite sign that he needs therapy to work out why he thinks that will be a problem going forward. After seeing the pain he has caused you. if he thinks its possible that he is capable of causing you that kind of pain again, I would be rethinking why I wanted to work on the marriage....just my opinion.
    I also think that both of us are too new into this to make any real decisions about future and that we have a lot of self healing that needs done before we can decide what we want for our own future and if the H has transformed himself into the person we want by our side for our future happiness. As my therapist has told me when we are talking about healing our individual pain, it truly is all about us and what we want. This is a somewhat good day for me (at least in comparison to the theres during the last 4 weeks) and it sounds like its not a very good one for you today. I want you to know that I am thinking about you and will continue to think about you as you did for me. Please do something special for yourself today to help you feel a little better and give your daughter the biggest hug and kiss that you can.....it will undoubtedly make you feel a little better. Big hugs

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    1. V and Anne,
      So much of what you're experiencing is "normal" right now. It is all still so new.
      I don't ever want anyone to feel as though I'm advocating for anyone to stay in a marriage that is too painful. But what I will say is that it's still very soon for your husbands to have gained any real insight into why they did what they did. Especially when there is earlier trauma in their lives. Learning to compartmentalize, learning to minimize, learning to lie to ourselves -- all strategies that help us survive. We stop even realizing we're doing it. So to then suddenly have to acknowledge that we do this, and then figure out how to stop doing it when it's "protected" us for so long, takes a lot of work and a lot of time.
      It's always, of course, up to you to determine whether you want to give your husband this time. And not all who go to therapy will come out with life-changing insights. Some give up too soon, some have crappy therapists, some decide that they don't want to change.
      If it helps at all, do your best to keep your focus on YOU right now. You shouldn't be micro-managing their recovery. What you should be doing -- now and always -- is creating boundaries that keep you safe. When those boundaries are violated, then you implement the consequences, whether that means he sleeps on the couch or that means you call in a divorce lawyer.
      I understand the desire to control his response to this. It gives us some sense that we have any control, that we can protect ourselves, that we can manage our way toward healing. But ultimately it's an illusion. We can only control ourselves and our own healing.

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  62. Anne and V
    My H being unable to tell the truth is holding my healing back.
    He really thinks that I know everything and need to 'draw a line under it' if I want to move forward. I know there's more info! I also know he would ask questions, it's human nature. It's all such a mess. It's not something I can live with but its not something I can walk away from. I know he loves me and is sorry, really sorry. I love him deeply and know our type of love is not easy to find again.
    I'd be wrong to split us up and it would be cutting my nose off etc!!
    I fantasise about turning up to places they met. Walking in on them sitting in some bar and looking shocked and scared at see me walk towards them. So stupid it's over, they've had there moments. He had enjoyed himself no matter how many times he says he didn't .
    Just a complete mess. Ruined my life
    Love to everyone xx

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    1. Jane,
      When you say "unable", what do you mean? Does he forget? Or an amnesiac? Or emotionally unable?
      My husband's therapist insisted that we do a "full disclosure" session with our couples counsellor. I ended up saying I didn't want to. It was afraid it would feel like an ambush. Instead, I insisted that my husband answer my questions...but with the provision that if at any time I became abusive (emotionally or physically), he could shut it down. That seemed fair to me. And that's how I got my answers. I'll be honest with you. I forget 90% of what he said. I knew the wheres, the whens, the hows, the how many times...and I've pretty much forgotten because ultimately it didn't make a whole lot of difference. He was in therapy to deal with his double life. That's what mattered to me. I could see his recovery.
      So, while I think WE are the ones who get to decide what we know and what we don't know, I think it can serve us to figure out just what new information we might want/need and whether or not it will really make the difference. I often think it's the willingness to share it with us that is more important than the actual information itself. It's the willingness that shows they'll make themselves incredibly uncomfortable in order to help us.

      Delete
  63. Can I add one thing? Sometimes keeping things straight is a real thing. We of course have PTSD NO DOUBT. They may also have it, at least a bit. they have been JARRED OUT of their little or huge secret they never thought would be exposed and if they are honest they SHOULD BE completely shook up.
    My h was drinking heavily pre Dday and one night in a pure blackout joined a few dating ( and I use the term loosly) sites. When I found them I was able to log on to see he had never revisited them I made him go through them with me, read the load of bs he wrote and delete them. I know his face. I saw his Shame I know he did not remember. I am not saying he was 10000000 percent honest with me, I just know there were actually things he forgot. Lies he told not just me but himself and had to sort out the whole perverted web of deciet he had spun took some time. I am not saying anyone has earned the benefit of a doubt. But I will say sometimes trying to remember and decipher fact from fiction is not all that easy. I have a timeline I put together because I had forgotten what I knew and what I didnt after my post Dday sleuthing. And more than once accused him of something we had already spoken of (to death) I was so shook up I couldn't keep it straight. I can't inagine what it was like in those days to be him. As the truth lay somewhere in the fog of many empty bottles of booze.

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    1. So true, Steam. And, as I wrote above, in the end, I didn't really care about a lot of the details. It all added up to the actual problem, which was that he'd cheated. A lot.

      Delete
  64. i am sad.... i was the other woman 5 years ago.. i made a hurtful decision and slept with another man -he too was married - disaster and sadness and hurt followed, we both divorced and started a relationship together. I struggled with guilt for a long time and had a VERY hard time forgiving myself for what i had done to my husband. I put my ex husband's feelings about my new partner many times - cause i felt so guilty and shameful........ 5 years rolls by..... he starts drinking all the time, odd behavior, strange choices that seem to make no sense to me..... one night when he is passed out - BOOM - i finally check his phone - spelled out in great details is his affair with a co-worker, how much they LOVE each other, how much they have sex - even on days he had sex with ME - i was devastated, frantic, probably crazy - he treated my HORRIBLY for the next 6 weeks, i think i just hung on cause i was so scared and trying to regain some control - i drank to much, would get horribly angry, and then beg HIM for forgiveness... ugly stuff.. From his OW i found out he had slept with another co-worker a year and a half before - hurt again -- i maintained contact with the OW - i dont even know if i could tell you WHY - maybe to test if he was telling the truth, maybe to determine if she wanted him and was trying to take MY MAN... not sure - but it wasnt good - and it just kept me hurting and hurting and hurting.

    fast forward 8 months - and of course i find out they started sneaking around again - professing their love to each other and sneaking around to have sex in the YARD or after the kids were in bed...... how did an intelligent, strong, woman get back to the same lonely place i was in 8 months ago..... i certainly cant talk about all of it with my friends, its to humiliating, not my family.... the first page on this website drew me in cause it talked about the pain shopping women do - it was good to know i was "normal" but not "right"

    everyone always thinks - yep - dump him - hes garbage - you deserve so much better, hes toxic, he will just keep cheating on you, "i give up on you" - its a lonely feeling to love a man that hurts your heart, who you lash out at but yet want to catch you when you fall into a puddle of tears

    im sad

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    1. Im sad,
      I'm sorry you find yourself here. There are those who've been hurt by women like you who've slept with married men who might be a bit less than sympathetic for your situation. But pain is pain. And I'm sorry for yours.
      Your husband is showing no signs of wanting to rebuild a marriage with you. Which leaves you with not many choices. Either stay in the marriage knowing exactly who this guy is and what he's likely to continue to doing...or leave. I think we both know the healthy choice.
      Cut these OW out of your life. They are not your friends. And, honey, cut this guy out of your life. I know it hurts. I know how horrible it will feel. But I guarantee it won't feel as horrible as continuing to sacrifice your dignity and self-respect in order to "keep" this guy around.
      He either cleans up and get counselling to figure out why he can't keep it in his pants...or you call a divorce lawyer. I'm voting for the lawyer.

      Delete
    2. Hi I'm sad

      There is so much of your story that reminds me of my wife , you don't say how long your marriage lasted before you started your affair and how long after your affair started was your D day with your husband but I do feel so sorry for you just as I do for my wife . You obviously realize now that you destroyed your marriage for a few minutes of excitement and passion with this other man . The 2 most important questions for me that I asked my wife was , 1. what did she feel was that wrong with our marriage that she was so willing to have an affair . 2. was her affair worth it for her to destroy our marriage over , sadly she refused to answer both questions . Can I ask you to think about those 2 questions and answer then honestly to yourself , that might help you decide what action you should take

      Sadly I have to agree with Elle , the real problem of your current relationship in that the foundation is it is built on lies , secrets and unfaithfulness , you both have nothing to look back on that was honest and trusting and now he is doing to you what you did to your fist husband . Just as you are , my wife was really in love with her OM but he was just using her for some fun on the side the difference is when they were found out he went back to his wife and I guess went through what so many husbands mentioned here have done to rebuild his marriage

      Where as in your case you both separated , divorced and continued your affair which as I said was based on lies, secrets and unfaithfulness , not love , openness and trust . To me he sounds like a serial cheater and from everything I have read your chances are poor of him ever being faithful to you and my advice is to get legal advice to ensure you are protected and from what you say you need to get tests for STD'S seriously consider taking back your self respect by leaving him
      Just my thoughts

      Alan

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    3. Thank you for your comments Alan -

      I was married for 10 years - and my husband found out about my lies and affair after a month. And believe me - I have asked and answered every question - I have spent an enormous amount of time and $$ evaluating my choices that Summer - and why I let some passion take over. I was wrong. I know that, I have clearly explained that to my ex husband - and to this day - hurting him is my single biggest regret. I don't know if we would still be married or not if I hadn't cheated - obviously there were problems -- but nothing that deserved me hurting him like THAT.

      I would agree that the early portion of our relationship was based on lies and cheating - but I do not agree it remained that way - there was true love and caring there - but serial cheater is prob an accurate description. I'm not a dumb woman - but I thought he had learned from his mistakes the same way I did

      But in reflection he never did the same self reflection and "work" to understand how he could make those mistakes and hurt someone - he just wanted to move full speed ahead into moving me right into his life where his wife had been -- I wouldn't just take her place as he wanted, nor did I let him take the place of my ex as he wanted - I needed there to be time to process and understand what I had done and make sure I would NEVER hurt someone like that again
      I'm sad


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    4. Polly

      Thank you for your comments

      Yes - there is a woman I hurt - I was so ashamed that I practically HID from her for years - how could I have been so selfish - how could I have inserted myself into her marriage

      And yes - after waiting WAY to long - I finally wrote her a letter telling her how very sorry I was , how I had NO BUSINESS being in the middle of her marriage, how my part in hurting her was a regret and sadness I will carry with me always - and that I had no expectation of her forgiving me, but that I was truly truly sorry

      She had every right to tell me to go to hell -- instead she extended her appreciation and was very gracious in her words to me - and the next time she saw me she walked up and shook my hand and thanked me for my letter

      Don't get me wrong - we are not friends - I took something important from her life and i know she wishes she had never heard my name. She is happier now than she was before - so the irony is she is happy with a new guy that loves her and her kids and I have the crappy guy I stole from her -- like I said before - karma is a bitch

      In saying WHY a woman would cheat - and is is just MY answer to that question - I was selfish, I wanted to have SOMETHING feel good - and thought during that time that it was just a stupid work fling and I would stop

      Then when into,d my husband - I became the defiant and Defensive person I have read so many of you describe your husbands as -- it was easier to let someone hold me and tell me "I love you....it won't always be this hard for us to be together" - than for me to face the pain on my husbands face

      No excuses - I ran and hid and behaved awfully

      And now I realize that he has done the EXACT same thing with the next woman - words of love and sweeping off your feet , affection and attention and adoring and holding and caring - almost down to the EXACT SAME words he used with me - I honestly had felt like we had something different than I ever had - I felt differently about him than anyone in the world - and I realize I wasn't any more special than the next woman he used all his lines on

      Last week I found the bday card he bought for her - and honestly - it was the EXACT same card he gave me 3 months ago - the exact same damn card

      I'm sad

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    5. I'm Sad,

      When I first read your post, I thought " you reap what you sow, sweetheart" but after reading further it honestly does seem that you are remorseful. It took courage to post here cause I would guess many think you got what you deserved. Again, the fact that you would even consider it ok to have a work fling with a married man with children triggers painful memories for me. Two flight attendants, one married with children, just wanted fun on the side cause her marriage was boring or whatever while the other other was single mom looking for a pension. I doubt either of them has had the remorse you have felt but I don't understand why you are surprised he cheated on you. If you have time, read Pittman's Private Lies. It clearly covers why these marriages fall apart and how serial cheaters stay on the same path. Almost twenty five yrs after the affairs, my husband still carries a huge weight. You may, too. There are some regrets that are very hard to put aside but with therapy maybe you can.

      Delete
    6. To I'm sad

      Thank you for your openness and honesty , I can understand not all marriages are made in heaven and in my case I can understand that my wife felt there was something seriously lacking in our marriage for her that's why it must have been so easy for her to fall in love with her OM and start an affair with him.

      Even after all this time what I have never been able to understand is why she never had the decency to tell me the truth about her lack of feelings for me and her love for her OM . What I have also never been able to understand is , 1 That she obviously though they would never get caught and 2. That after they did get caught by his wife and he dumped her to go back to his wife that she continued to love him for at least several years if not all of the 12 years since her affair . As soon as they were caught by his wife he ended their affair and refused to see her or even talk to her , resigned his job immediately and yet she continued to love him and believe he was her knight in shining Armour and he would ride of into the sunset with her

      Since her D day she has condemned herself to a lonely and bitter life which seems such a waste to me , yes she destroyed our marriage but I have been able to continue to love life and share so much with my children that I really don't feel any anger towards her

      Thank you again

      Alan

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    7. I'm sad, in my opinion, as an outsider:

      In the end there has to be an end to this suffering. You did an awful thing to another woman (and to your husband) you admitted that, you asked sincerely for forgiveness. I think this is rare. Now everything's falling apart, which may in the end be something you see as a blessing. You can walk away. You can atone, you can be peaceful, you can be free. You can be happy again.

      Delete
    8. Im sad,
      I'm really glad you found us. And incredibly grateful for the candour and courage you've shown in telling us your warts-and-all story. It sounds as if you've gained a lot of insight through all this. Sadly it seems your husband has not.
      As you've no doubt discerned from so many on this site, rebuilding a marriage is possible. But it's damn near impossible without two committed partners, especially the cheater willing to do the hard work of figuring out what he's looking for outside of the marriage (and outside of himself). Without that understanding, he's likely to keep repeating the pattern, each time wondering why, when he gets what he thinks he wants, he can't be happy for long.
      With that understanding, he's far more likely to catch himself when he begins telling himself the familiar tale -- that he deserves this, that he feels more "alive" with her, that "I couldn't help it", he "didn't mean it to happen" and on and on. We've heard them all.
      You, Im sad, have the chance to take your insight into a better future with, potentially, a healthier partner. If your husband won't smarten and up and dedicate himself to breaking his pattern, then I think we both know your next move. And it's out the door.
      I'm sorry for all you're going through. I'm sure even your pain and grief is complicated by your own feelings of guilt and shame. You might have had bad judgement, Im sad, but you're clearly not a bad person. And, as Maya Angelou has famously said, when we know better, we do better.

      Delete
  65. It has been about 1 year since D-Day. My H is her boss and they -still- work together. Has anyone ever dealt with this before? If so, how? I can't seem to get past it and it tortures me every single day. KN

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    1. Anon,
      I think a lot of women have dealt with their husband's work affair, but I ideally that relationship is severed post-discovery. Either one of them leaves the company (in my husband's case, the OW was paid off to leave) or they move departments. It can be very very hard to rebuild a marriage when the affair partner is still very much a part of the unfaithful spouse's life. It's asking far too much of you, I think, to tolerate this.
      I would explore different options. Given that virtually all experts insist on No Contact between the two affair partners, you're certainly being reasonable to insist that something change in order for you to participate in rebuilding a marriage.
      What does your husband say?

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    2. Thank you Elle. I have been given the run-around since D-Day. Every excuse in the book. It's his livelihood....She can't find another job that pays as well, blah, blah, blah.... I have asked for NO Contact since D-Day but due to H being her boss it's impossible. I have no idea if they never stopped, have found more secretive ways to keep it going, last month he came home smelling like her perfume -again-. I am at my wits end. My feelings don't seem to matter. I don't think he is capable of knowing what to do to rebuild us. Trust is gone. His behaviors with his phone remain private and I find that unacceptable. But -- again. My feelings don't matter. We've discussed separating. But after the horrible way he has treated me / us since D-Day and the upcoming 1 year D-Day I am contemplating divorce at this point. He has broken my heart, spirit, and soul. We've been together for over 25 years and I don't recognize the man he turned into after getting involved with her. Sometimes I feel like he is sabotaging us. Am I just wasting my time? He has a narcissistic personality and turns everything around on me. Getting thru to him is like talking to a brick wall. Each talk turns into a huge fight. I am so sad, depressed and lost that my life has been turned upside down.

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    3. Anonymous,
      I think you've answered your own questions. He is doing nothing to support you through this incredible pain. He is in a position to help assuage your doubts and fears...and he's not doing it. Instead he is "protecting" his affair partner from the consequences of having an affair with her married boss.
      I would run not walk to a lawyer too ensure that you are financially protected. You feel like he is sabotaging you because he IS sabotaging you. You feel like you're wasting your time because you ARE wasting your time. You can't do this alone. And he's not willing to help you. It's hard enough rebuilding a marriage with a partner who's repentant and willing to do whatever it takes. It's impossible with a partner who won't even meet you part way.
      I'm so sorry. But I suspect that once you start taking those strides to regain yourself and your sense of safety in the world, you'll feel better. There will be sadness, of course. Twenty-five years is a long time. But you owe it yourself to refuse to be treated like this any longer.

      Delete
  66. I'm sad
    Life is made very difficult by betrayal. It hurts beyond belief to lose what you believed was love. we all ask ourselves how could we have been so wrong ,read our partners feelings for us so badly. My husband repeatedly tells me that he always loved me would never have left me. Yet he honestly hurt even tortured me with gross photos and details of his affair. You all speak about needing to know details of your partners affair. I stand witness to the fact that those details cripple us and never fade away. I wish with all my heart he had not shown me photos of them making love, the close ups of him inside of her haunt me because I truly believed only we did that. to me it is an act of love.
    You have seen betrayal from both sides, I hope you can help us all understand how OW feel and why they take another woman's man. You now know how it feels and for your pain I am truly sorry for you. I hate hurting anyone and feel I would hate myself for ruining someone's life.
    I really hope you find peace and happiness yet in my heart I realize somewhere out in the world is a woman you helped destroy and gave so much pain. My heart goes out to her too.
    It is nearly 2 years since my D day and I struggle daily still. My H is home most of the time now and assures me how much he loves me constantly yet his inability to get stiff and seeming lack of interest in making love to me is destroying my belief in myself leaving me truly sad even scared, after all I saw proof of his massive erection inside her!!!
    All these emotions trauma and pain are caused by betrayal, by not being honourable and loving and seeking selfish pleasure. If you were unhappy why not just leave and be honest before causing so much pain.
    I hope your situation finds peace and happiness. We all deserve is that. Love is given freely it is such a shame some humans value it so little. I had to watch not only H making love but also crying like a baby because he loved OW so much and couldn't leave her, also heard his declarations of undying love such as "You are the woman I want in my arms" ,I will never love anyone as much as I love you my beautiful girlfriend" and maybe worst of all "I will never want to be anywhere but with you, I will just go through the motions, I will never touch HER honestly"
    How can you forget all this? would it have been easier for me if I had known nothing? My H tells me that it ended badly with OW that in the end he disliked her manipulative ways and nastiness. He is now more appreciative of my gentleness he says and tries to please me. Does anyone understand when I tell you I look at him and think "Will the real J stand up" Which version of him can I believe in. This is the price of lies and betrayal ,what to believe. Dare we trust?
    My love and best wishes to you all, Polly

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  67. I am a man betrayed by my wife. 2.5 months ago after our 20 year marriage she told me that she had an emotional affair and broke it up the day before. A few days later she told me that they also had sex. I was able to forgive her as she seemed really repentant, but even though she does not see him anymore, she still longs for him.

    She told me today that she has a deep bond with him (even though it seems he abused her more than love her) and that there is no bond between us anymore. I am considering separation. What do you think?

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    1. Stephan,
      I'm really sorry for what you're going through.
      While men often cheat for excitement or distraction or plain old sex, women often cheat for connection.
      I think whether you separate depends on a few things: Do you want out of your marriage? Does your wife want out of your marriage? Are either of you remotely interested in rebuilding your marriage?
      If either one of you wants out, then a separation and divorce seems a given. But if you're both remotely interested in rebuilding your marriage (20 years is a long time!), then a few things need to happen. Absolutely no contact between your wife and her affair partner. Total transparency by her about where she is, who she's with, as well as access for you to all her e-mails/texts/computer/phone/etc. She needs to slam the door shut to her affair partner and open it up to you so that you can then see what it was about and decide if it's something you can begin to heal from.
      Typically men have a harder time moving past a wife's physical affair. But it's possible. You need a lot of support to help you understand that your wife's choice to cheat is on HER. It's not about you. It's not necessarily about your marriage.
      Stephen, betrayal is excruciating and a man whose wife cheats often doesn't have the emotional support necessary to move past this without bitterness, whether within the marriage or on your own. But please know, her choice to cheat says volumes about her and nothing about you.
      Welcome. We might be a "wives' club" but men are more than welcome too.

      Delete
    2. Stephan

      I have a pretty good idea how you feel , I was married 18 years when I found out my wife was having a sexual affair with a co worker , the difference with us is my wife was never repentant but she also continued to love her other man for quite some time after her affair ended , how long I really don't know as we have never talked about it for years . In actual fact we have never really talked about anything for years , yes we share a house but that's all

      You don't mention children in your post , they would be a consideration for you , they are the only reason I stayed but I can say if your wife is still in love with her affair partner and no longer feels any love for you then you really need to decide what your future holds . If you seriously consider separating get legal advice first and as your wife has been sexually involved with another man you really need to have STD tests for your own health protection

      I can say it is not easy living with a wife who loves another man , get as much support as you can from special friends , professional counselors , because you will go through long term self criticism and as Elle said , it had nothing to do with you , your wife made the decision to be unfaithful to you and to at the very least seriously damage your marriage if not destroy it .

      You are i my thoughts and prayers

      Alan

      Delete
    3. Stephan,

      are you sure there's no contact between them? Texts, emails etc. Absolutely no contact is the only way to recover. If this man is married/has a partner consider telling her what's happened. The site Surviving Infidelity has some excellent support for men, there are certainly many people going through a similar calamity. You are not alone.

      Affairs are fantasies, I'm not at all surprised that his behaviour seems fairly abusive. With NC she may well 'detox' and stop longing for whatever fix she was getting. She may be very embarrassed afterwards. This is one occasion when therapy is necessary; she needs to commit to getting that support. I say this advisedly, I'm not suggesting it's a panacea. But hopefully this will mean she's not languishing in confusion for months or years.

      Twenty years is a long commitment to abandon, you must be in great pain. But this may not continue. She doesn't feel her bond with you but it's still there, under the rubble. It's just that you can't allow her to torment you indefinitely. You need to as they say 'get your ducks in a row' and prepare to get yourself into a place of safety. Hopefully you won't need to put your plans into action, but you do deserve to be honoured and respected for your own worth. I do wish you luck.


      Delete
  68. "But i love him".......
    I think so many of us think that because we have feelings of love for our spouses, they are right for us or that we should accept their behavior. Or our cheating spouses think "I have feelings for the OP, it must be love, and I must be with him/her."
    Maybe we need to rethink what we know and believe about love.
    I love (pun intended) this article: http://www.brainpickings.org/2015/03/31/how-to-love-thich-nhat-hanh/

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    Replies
    1. Thanks for that. Brain pickings is one of my favourite newsletters!

      Delete
    2. MBS - that's a wonderful article. I realise I bought this book and hadn't read it yet but the article is very special in itself, the illustrations too. Thank you.

      Delete
  69. Polly a comment on your husbands ED. I am not a doctor but I have seen this, or heard of this a lot from friends who are older. Older men (well ALL men) are going to be physically aroused by something "new" and may have an easier time with an erection--BUT may have been using something to help too. I had a friend dating a man in his 70's while she was in her mid 50's. The first few times, massive erections. The next few times he had to use Viagra which REALLY pissed her off. But the reality is, blood flow decreases EVERY where as we get older. Chances are good your H could have been using Viagra with his filthy photographing OW even at the START and there is NO reason he shouldn't be popping one for you (pun intended) if you wish to have sex with him. He should check with his Dr. Viagra does work.. I know that does not help with the emotional pain, but-----hopefully it might help you knowing he could have been indulging in a little rx helper with her. I am still disgusted he showed you those photos. If nothing else, he has deleted them, correct?

    ReplyDelete
  70. Dear betrayedwives…. I am struggling with myself, and would appreciate your insights ……
    I.
    The most important question I have is, why my husband would reject intimacy with me from 2006 onwards, and refuse to do anything to repair our marriage even though I told him how miserable I was.
    He keeps on telling me that it started when I told him, that I had problems being intimate with him. I acknowledge that and own that. I just trusted him so much at the time, that I was certain that if I told him, we could work it out together. It was in no way stated as a criticism of him, but this is unfortunately how it was received. I believe that a normal reaction on his part would have been to participate in counselling with me, as I asked him to, but he just refused, and every time, I asked him to do something about it, he just kept on hammering on the fact that I had refused him…. In my world there is nothing normal in refusing to do something for your spouse, if your spouse is falling apart and is miserable for 7 years, and tells you and begs you over and over. After 7 years, he chose to have three relationships at the same time in a sort of midlife crisis frenzy. He slept with one of them 6 times, and would have slept with one of the others, if she hadn’t had second thoughts because he was married. He stopped it himself, and I suspected nothing as our marriage was already so strained that there was really no difference in his behavior.
    I have read about fear of intimacy and infidelity and I guess that there must be something there. My husband was raised by absent/alcoholic parents, he is borderline OCD, and I have become so afraid to trust him again that I imagine that he is acting his perfect husband behavior.

    II.
    I know that I am not normal for staying for 7 years in a marriage without sex and intimacy, and 2 years after discovering his infidelity even though I tell myself that I have to, because of our disabled son … and our children are both so very happy with our family and so sad when their friends parents divorce. I have sought counselling before, and I know that I have huge abandonment fears, which makes me loyal to a stupid degree. I do however feel that my love for my husband has been damaged very much, and I am uncertain if I can ever get that feeling back. I feel like he is teaching me how to keep up a façade like he has done for all these years instead of being my own passionate and honest self. What do you think? And if it is possible to love him again, what steps do I need to take to get that feeling back?
    Thank you!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous,
      I'm so sorry for the pain you're in. We've all been there.
      It sounds as if there's a great deal of emotional pain on both sides here. And I'm curious about your use of the word "normal". I'm not sure there is a "normal". Especially for people who've grown up in dysfunction, which your husband did and, I suspect, you did too, given your own issues around abandonment. "Normal" is what we always assume other people have. But I promise you, there's a wide wide range of "normal".
      Your husband's fears around seeking therapy when you expressed your issues around intimacy are far more likely about unresolved issues from his family of origin than with you. Sadly his decision to deal with his fear, anxiety, shame, etc. by engaging in affairs affects you in such a deep way.
      I think the question for both of you is: do you want to rebuild a marriage based on honesty and respect? There is no right answer. You're completely within your rights to say 'no way' and to decide to move on. But given your concern re. your children, if your answer is 'yes', then you both need to seek therapy to resolve those old issues that are clearly getting in the way of your adult relationships. I would also urge you to get marriage counselling but you might want to wait a bit until he, in particular, has made some headway into his own issues and gained insight into why he used women outside his marriage to assuage his feelings of rejection.
      Please don't think I"m blaming you in any way. I'm not. He made a choice that is devastating. But unless he's a totally narcissistic jerk -- and some are -- then he's someone who made a horrible choice. Not necessarily a horrible person.
      Think about what you want...and then set about achieving it. It's not impossible. Hard, yes. So is divorce. There's no easy path out of this. There's only the path that's right for you.

      Delete
  71. Lola here w update: married under 1 yr, no kids yet, in our 30s. 21 mos ago dday of him using sites/apps. 16 mos ago dday of him mtg strangers irl for sex for over a year. They were 80% bio women and 20% transsexuals. He stopped then, gave me complete access to phone/computer, did SA for 6 mos, did some MC. Said he'd do anything to save marriage. He also has a rage issue, but was reluctant and defensive - eventually got a cpl sessions of IC but every cpl of weeks blew up and said he didn't need any IC and didn't have a problem.

    Since his most recent blowup (2 mos ago), I feel done. I lost attraction for him and won't do any more work on R. I'm over it. I don't think I could ever trust him again even if he's perfect. All of a sudden now he's saying he wants me to relax while he "does everything." He is reading things about how to be truly remorseful and is insistent on me giving him time to try to change my heart.

    It's so hard to talk about or move twd separation and divorce w him when he's finally so gung Ho about trying. I need reinforcement. He just keeps acting like nothing is wrong- despite me talking about separation and no hope of wanting to be intimate w him again, he keeps scheduling social events and acting as tho I've never mentioned ending things and everything is great. It's weird and not motivating for filing because things feel "fine" for a BFF roommate, just not for a marriage. It makes me feel sorry for him and makes me reconsider timing - but really I should just put on my big girl panties and rip this bandaid off, right?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Lola,
      You're a kind-hearted soul who discovered that the prince she married is a frog. You could stay married to a frog out of fear of hurting the frog's feelings. Or you could, as you say, put on your big girl panties and give yourself a chance to find another prince and the frog the chance to find another frog. It will hurt. You will both be very very sad. But it's nothing to the misery of spending a life with someone who doesn't make you light up when he enters the room.
      You're not doing him any favours by staying with him and god knows, you're not doing yourself any favours by staying when everything in your heart and mind is telling you that you want out. One of the things we talk about so often on this site is learning to listen to that voice we all have that knows what's best for us. Women become adept at ignoring in favour of being kind and not rocking the boat. But we pay the price for that. With our integrity. With our souls.
      You know what to do. Accept that it will be hard and you will be sad. The right choice isn't always the easy choice.

      Delete
    2. One more thing: If you think there's any danger of his rage being taken out on you when you do tell him it's over, be sure you have someone with you and take steps to ensure your own safety in the days/weeks/months to follow. I don't know what his "rage" is like, but your safety is the most important thing.

      Delete
    3. Thanks so much, Elle. Luckily, frogs can't act like princes for too long. He started having another blowup today. Called me a name & was telling me F you and stuff like that when I wasn't cussing or even yelling or angry- was just trying to explain to him how his reaction to my sadness at his cheating was self-centered. Luckily, when he didn't calm down or stop being foul to me despite me asking him to, he told me "No, F you, get the F out of here!" And I saw that window for what it was and said "no, but you will be leaving in about a month because we are separating."

      It's like the wind got knocked out of him. But what in the world did he think would come from talking to me like that?! I apologized for saying it in a fight, but explained that I had thought about it for a while and told him why separating is better than keeping this situation going. He calmed down and weve been talking about the logistics and timing and all that. I am feeling relieved (and happy?).

      Thanks for the warning about having someone there if I was worried about him getting physical. I wasn't because we've had a few other conversations headed in that direction and he is more calm during those conversations than usual (he knows to be on his best behavior then).

      -lola

      Delete
    4. Lola,
      Good. It sounds as if this marriage needs to be left in the past. I hope for your husband's sake that he seeks therapy to get a handle on his issues. And I know for you that life holds far greater things.

      Delete
  72. Lola,

    No one can tell you what to do but here's the but if I were you I would. Both of you are still young and have no kids plus you seem to have lost that attraction. Yes, I would take the first stage coach out of Dodge simply because I wouldn't Want to deal with someone who denies he has rage issues. Mostly it's because I grew up in domestic violence. This isn't pretty to say but women who have low self esteem find it very hard to leave an abusive situation. What is to keep your husband's anger issues from escalating into something far worse than shouting or throwing things? Even showing rage is a control thing. Not to make light of this but the words from Kenny Rogers song, The Gambler, come to mind. It's time to fold your cards, do therapy, and move on.

    ReplyDelete
  73. 2 years post D Day
    I'm so frustrated, maybe angry is a better way to describe my feelings today. Recently, my H got a phone call from an old High School friend/one time girlfriend. He had initiated contact with her to her to inform her of a classmates death. She continued to call him to "vent " to him about her failing marriage. She called him in my presence on one occasion. I did not know they had been talking up until this point. When I told him I didn't think it was a good idea for him to be talking to other women unless I was friends with them too (and spoke to them on a regular basis). He got so angry at me saying it wasn't fair, that she is JUST a friend and she is just venting to him. I tried to explain that with our history, talking to any other women isn't ok with me, beyond casual conversation. He made me feel terrible, saying that he could never have female friends and that he made his bed now he has to lay in it, that I now control who he can talk to. That made me feel bad, I tried to explain to him my insecurities. He did send her a text stating. "My wife was displeased I was talking to you. I can never talk to you again" I think that, that statement makes me the "bad guy". when in reality, he can't talk to other women because of choices he has made. Maybe I'm way off base and need a reality check. Should I feel this way?
    Shalleen

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    Replies
    1. Doesn't matter if you "should" feel that way. If you do, then that is enough of a reality check. You brought this up with him, a completely normal and understandable concern, and he dismissed you. You are right, he made you "the bad guy"--typical of someone who doesn't take responsibility for himself.

      You sound like someone who has had your reality screwed with that you can't recognize what your inner voice is telling you. Actually, I think most of us are. Time for us to start listening to our inner voice and stop letting our partners tell us what to think. Doesn't mean you should always go with the first thing that pops in your head, but your inner voice is telling you to pay attention to this situation. Your partner should be listening to your concerns. Why isn't he?

      Delete
    2. Shalleen,
      No. He is completely turning this around and expecting YOU to take responsibility for the consequences of HIS choices. Absolutely not okay. If one of your conditions for reconciliation is (and it should be) that he has no private correspondence with women, then that's just the way it is. If he refuses to agree with that, then it's a huge red flag. He's just being a child throwing a temper tantrum because he doesn't like the consequences he created with his behaviour. Frankly what I'm more concerned about is your response to it. You need to find a way to stand clear in your own boundaries without feeling like you have to apologize for them. It is simply NOT okay with you that he have private correspondence with other women. If he violates that then you need to have already decided what that means for you. Does it mean he goes back to therapy? Does it mean you separate? Does it mean he sleeps on the couch? Whatever the consequence, it needs to be immediate and consistent, just like with a child. If A happens, then B happens. Simple. If he refuses to come around then he's sending a very clear message that reconciliation is about what he needs not what you need.
      This woman, quite frankly, is dangerous. She's looking for somebody to make her feel better and your husband probably laps that up like a cat with cream. He needs to recognize those situations as dangerous to his marriage.
      If he's not in therapy, he should be.

      Delete
    3. Shalleen,
      I agree with you- I would not be okay with him talking to a woman like that. My H has some female friends who I am very okay with (I talk to them and hang out and know their situations and am fully comfortable with it). Your H should not be getting angry at you or fighting with you over what you need. You shouldn't be having to explain so much to him (when it's common sense) and he shouldn't be making you look like the bad guy. Seems like "genuine imitation Naugahyde remorse" to me - if that's an unfamiliar concept, plz Google it to see what I mean.

      My own H still disagrees w me that he should have either not had a bachelor party at all or he should have told all his friends that no woman could ever be in the bachelor party house. That he disagrees makes me realize that our moral values are different to the point that marriage doesn't work, he isn't actually remorseful, and he isn't willing to deal with the consequences of his cheating. (Btw he told me on the day before our wedding that the night before while my then-fiance was sleeping and without him knowing "some of the guys" had a stripper come to the house, so an escort/prostitute. I was LIVID. But he STILL argues that he shouldn't had to have told his friends in advance that no women could ever be at the bachelor party house or else it'd risk his marriage. This is but a tiny part of the reason that he is moving out soon at my request.) I am done arguing and explaining and receiving anger from him due to the consequences of his cheating.

      How angry your H is about your request also makes me wonder if his attachment to this woman might be pretty strong. And I wouldn't want to deal with his adolescent pouting either. Do you feel like you are married to and partners with a responsible adult or attempting to "raise" your H? (I realized I was doing the latter, not the former, and need to separate.)

      -lola

      Delete
    4. Thank you MBS, Elle and Lola for your response. I was very taken back with my H lack of accountability. We saw our counselor a couple of days ago. He did admit that he had a tantrum and felt like I was dictating to him who could and could not be his friend. He feels like he will be punished forever for the affair he had and views my response as a punishment. I still don't think he "gets it ". I was very firm in my position that because of the choices he previously made, that these are the consequences. He agrees to disagree with me. I am sincerely concerned that he doesn't get it. He has minimized so much about his affair, according to him it's due to the shame he feels for having the affair. I think it's more shame that he got caught. How much shame could you feel if you had a physical affair for 5 years and an emotional affair for two more. Not too much if you ask me.
      Thank you for this site. I really does help to have different perspectives and input from others. Putting things into writing makes my thinking clearer.
      Shalleen

      Delete
    5. Shalleen,
      You're right that he doesn't "get" it. Is he interested in getting it? Does he have any desire to understand your point of view? Or is he too busy defending his own? I wrote this letter for husbands. Maybe he'll read it: http://betrayedwivesclub.blogspot.ca/2014/04/my-letter-to-husbands-just-talk-about.html

      Delete
  74. My rage is explosive and I haven't curbed it, even in front of our daughter. It's as if I don't care, but I so desperately do. I know she's being impacted by all of this and I don't seem to be able to shield her, even from her mommy. Daddy seems to keep it together, but I'm just out of control. When H isn't here, I'm fine. Maybe he needs to leave.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. V,
      I'm going to beg you to please, please, please stop showing your anger in front of your daughter. As a daughter who had to deal with my own parents' post-affair insanity, it's terrifying. I honestly think I still bear the scars of how frightening it was for me. And I know I still have issues with anger -- I feel small and frightened when anyone gets angry around me.
      Make that a line you simply don't cross. She's powerless and vulnerable and needs to know that the adults in her life, even when they're going through their own pain, can be relied upon to keep her safe, physically and emotionally. The last thing you want to do is create an environment that makes it more likely that she'll wind up in an unhealthy relationship herself.

      Delete
    2. Elle, thank you. I can't seem to understand why or how I could need reminding of this, as I too am the daughter of a couple of crazy people. Thank you and thank you for what you're doing here. If I could tell you thank you everyday, I would. Thank you.

      Delete
  75. Sheryl Sandbergs post on grief has stirred up alot of conversation about grief. I don't know if any of you found her words as true for our situation as I did. But it is worth a read. http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/sheryl-sandbergs-post-on-late-husband-sets-off-meditations-on-grief/?_r=2

    I think it is so important for our healing that we remember to grieve. Too often we are caught in anger and rage and can't get past it. I found this program so incredibly useful and validating. Highly worth a listen. Just replace the discussion from loss of a loved one to loss of the life/marriage we thought we had.

    http://www.kqed.org/a/forum/R201506050900

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. MBS, thank you for providing this link. I just read it and it opened up some serious flood gates. The timing couldn't be more perfect. I was just thinking yesterday that this is like a grieving process for me, except the person is still alive. I'm grieving the loss of my marriage. I'm grieving the loss of my family. I'm grieving the loss of my life as I knew it. I know my little girl is far better off with her daddy than without him, and I'm not sure if his death would have been easier for me than going through this.

      Delete
  76. V,
    I've said this before but it's worth repeating. As a child who grew up in domestic violence, the fear of hearing or seeing rage maybe escalated into physical stuff will stay with you forever. Think about if you want your daughter to spend yrs in therapy or end up in a relationship where she walks around on eggshells so the guy doesn't explode. Do whatever you need to, but pull yourself together in front of your child. Your job as a mother is to protect her, not create a scary world. And really, she is trapped isn't she? She can't exactly pack a bag & yell, " I've had it with you people, i' m moving down the street to the smith's" you are modeling a behavior she will later on show you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Pilot's wife, thank you. That made laugh a little; although, I do read the seriousness of it. Thank you.

      Delete
    2. V,
      Glad you got the point through the humor. I've enjoyed your posts so much and no doubt about it, you're a talented writer. But maybe the question to ask is what is the legacy I leave to my daughter? I wrestled with that and still do. Leave if you can't stand him or stay and pretend like I did for many yrs. I planned to leave when our daughter started college but then life was better until cancer interrupted my plans. That's what life is isn't it? Always waylaid by something not in the script.

      Delete
  77. II am trying so hard to not "pain shop" ! but I never got an admission from my husband. I have basic text message proof but nothing concrete. He in fact swears there is no affair but I know since confronting him about who she is and why he is texting her it has continued. He is currently working out of State, where she lives just so happens...and is only home everyother weekend so I really do not have much ability to monitor the situation. She is the ex-wife of one of his old friends who worked for him while he was married to this women and living in another State where my husband was managing a large project. OW and her husband divorced in 2014 and my husband remained friends with her, is what I am to believe but not the husband?? hmmm. I do not know her but did know her exhusband. My husband and I speak everyday several times while he is away and he says he loves me everyday, we do things on the weekends he is home but I just cannot stop obessing about her and what they do or don't do when he is out of town. My gut tells me there is more going on. Oh and during the discovery of this in February when I confronted him about some text message I found on his phone (which I have no access to records it is a business line) he admited he talks to her and saw her but no affair. A week later he says " I am not sure I want to be married anymore" RED FLAG!! this came out of the blue since wait...she is just a friend. I am getting such mixed messages and having a hard time knowing if I go left or right since he denies denies denies!! could he really be living 2 lives?? one with her and one with me?? these are the questions I obess over. I think sometimes feel like I have no clue who this man I have been married to for 23 yrs is?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I hate to say it but this sounds pretty textbook. If he's "just friends" then why the resistance to your discomfort around it. His loyalty should be to you...not to a "friend".
      I'm not much good at sleuthing but is there some way to access his phone records? A recording device you can hide in his car? I hate this stuff...but sometimes it's the only way to get answers.
      And I agree with you. Something smells fishy about this. This section is full (when I get to 200 comments, it stops publishing them so I had to delete a few comments to get yours to show) but you might want to post on the "Home" blog posts so that more women see your post and can comment. I know there are some who did some sleuthing to get answers.

      Delete
  78. hi, i have been married for close to 3 years now. We have a 6 year old son, before we got married i came across a conversation between my then boyfriend and some girl about going away for a night together, i confronted him and even through him out of the house. Later i forgave him and we got married, i fell pregnant and during my pregnancy one time when he was out, he sent me a weird message on my phone which was clearly not for me, when he got home i confronted him and he took my phone and deleted the message, he used to go out alot and leave me alone with the child. I gave birth to another boy, when he was almost 3 months old my husband left me yet again with the kids and went away for a long weekend for fun, during that time, i woke up one of the mornings and found my baby lying dead next to me, he had a cold the previous day, but i took him o the doctor. it was the most horrible experience, i can not forgive myself for being asleep when it happened and i can never forgive my husband cause i believe he was cheating on me that night wherever he was. Since then i have never been happy, he continuous to go out alot and leave my with my older son, he want away for the long weekend again this year to the same place he went when i lost my child, he is arrogant at times, inconsiderate, selfish and i have just grown to hate him. i feel trapped at home, i want him to leave my house, im not really financially stable but i beleive i can survive with my son even if he goes. I worry about what the elders will say, the community, because as things are i really want to divorce him, i am not happy at home. I dont know what to do.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sweetheart, you've experienced so much trauma that of course you're unhappy. I'm so sorry for the loss of your child. No parent should ever have to experience that pain.
      Is there someone you can go to for counselling? You mention the "elders" so I'm wondering if you're Indigenous. I think you need support to help you heal from all this pain. And you need to find a way to forgive yourself.
      It sounds as if you've got a deep reservoir of strength in you. I think that, with the support of a counsellor, you could work out a plan to help you get out of this situation. It sounds like your marriage is beyond repair and without a partner willing to help you, the best thing you can do is get yourself out and create a stable home for your son.
      But I think the place to start is with someone who can help you process all this trauma. Please let me know how you're doing. And please look into what resources are available in your community. The elders, I would hope, want you to be safe and productive and able to heal. You can't worry about the disapproval of people who don't walk in your shoes. It will keep you paralyzed. You can only do what you know to be the best choice for you and for your son.

      Delete

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